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Old 07-01-2018, 12:50 AM   #1
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Default Battery that heats itself

Having read comments in several threads about lithium concerns in colder climes, here's an interesting article about a newly developed battery that can heat itself:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/car...itself-winter/
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Old 07-01-2018, 01:10 AM   #2
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Thank you for providing the link...very interesting...
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Old 07-01-2018, 01:35 PM   #3
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They don't say what kind of battery it is but since the article mentions electric cars and fast charging I assume it's lithium. The fact that no changes are required to the charging system make it especially interesting to me. Could be a drop in replacement for existing batteries. No word in the article about when the tech will be available, unfortunately, but hopefully soon.
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Old 07-02-2018, 02:28 PM   #4
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^^^^ A little more information...https://techxplore.com/news/2018-06-...-vehicles.html
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Old 07-02-2018, 03:44 PM   #5
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Interesting. I hadn't heard of a 50 degree F limit on fast charging.

Not sure the value of this "development" though. All electric cars (except the Leaf!) have a thermal protection system to keep the battery in a temp band - providing both heating and cooling - too hot is also a problem.

The system GM is using is integrated with the cabin temp control system. It's quite effective as reports of battery degradation are practically nil, and they've had these systems on the road since 2011.

I have people in the Volt owner's group that use their cars all winter long in the freezing north - they do have to leave them plugged in at night. You won't find the bitching about that like on here about such a requirement for RV systems.
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Old 07-02-2018, 04:16 PM   #6
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I have people in the Volt owner's group that use their cars all winter long in the freezing north - they do have to leave them plugged in at night. You won't find the bitching about that like on here about such a requirement for RV systems.
There is a bit of a difference in this regard between a (typically garage kept) car and a (often parked outdoors and off-site) RV. Those who find expensive storage facilities with available power to be cost-effective have no issue. Not everyone is in that category.
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Old 07-02-2018, 06:34 PM   #7
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All you need is a 15a plug access to maintain lithium ion batteries at home not an expensive storage facility with power. Every home built has an outside 15a plug by code. I did so outside in Minnesota winters for two years that way. I don't know why people who have no experience with lithium ion keep passing on misinformation. Besides, if you buy lithium ion, you should make yourself aware of the parameters. You can shut down as well with LiFeMgPo4 batteries because they can withstand -40F same as AGMs. Advanced RV has that choice. The Volta Power Systems is somewhere between that and the standard LiFePo4 batteries (-4F) and Minneapolis winter temperatures for the last 4 years did not get down to the Volta limitations if you unplugged.

I think every lithium ion battery sold in the RV market has a chemistry where you should not charge below about 41 deg. F. Maybe electric car batteries and really fast charging have different parameters.

On the road I essentially self-heat my batteries with 10 amps of electric resistant 12vdc heating pads that run off the batteries when not on shore power. Since lithium ion self heats while in use the ambient temperature has to dip into the low 20s for the heating pads to come on. Of course it is imperative to drive to charge (or idle) your batteries while on the road. Most lithium ion setups have more the 400ah battery banks and electric heating pads being on intermittently probably have about 100ah draw daily in any temperatures you can withstand camping. It is not that difficult. I camped and boon docked a whole week in below freezing temperatures 24/7 mostly below 20F down to 0F.
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Old 07-02-2018, 09:35 PM   #8
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All you need is a 15a plug access to maintain lithium ion batteries at home not an expensive storage facility with power. Every home built has an outside 15a plug by code. I did so outside in Minnesota winters for two years that way. I don't know why people who have no experience with lithium ion keep passing on misinformation.
For heaven's sake. There was ZERO misinformation in my post. A great many people are not fortunate enough to be able to store their rigs at home (I believe the above-cited poster is one of them). A storage facility with a 15 amp plug accessible in each parking spot is generally MUCH more expensive than one with no access to power. It is perfectly obvious that these statements are factual. I don't know why people keep pretending they weren't true. And, the "no experience with xxx" trope gets old, too. It is convenient when one wishes to comment on things they own, and equally convenient to ignore when one wishes to comment on things they do not own.
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:21 PM   #9
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What is the number 1 reason for all of the b van conversions taking place right now?? Is Onan no longer getting the job done or do the new lithium batteries etc offer something that they don't have?? Just curious, been seeing a lot of talk about the conversions lately. Would love to hear from you guys!
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:45 PM   #10
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What is the number 1 reason for all of the b van conversions taking place right now?? Is Onan no longer getting the job done or do the new lithium batteries etc offer something that they don't have?? Just curious, been seeing a lot of talk about the conversions lately. Would love to hear from you guys!
Good question.

My belief is that the #1 reason (and the only really compelling one) is if you need to have more than two hours of air conditioning when stopped without power. IMO, if you don't need that, they aren't worth the hassle. Of course, that is a value judgement, not a statement of fact.
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Old 07-02-2018, 10:56 PM   #11
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For heaven's sake. There was ZERO misinformation in my post. A great many people are not fortunate enough to be able to store their rigs at home (I believe the above-cited poster is one of them). A storage facility with a 15 amp plug accessible in each parking spot is generally MUCH more expensive than one with no access to power. It is perfectly obvious that these statements are factual. I don't know why people keep pretending they weren't true. And, the "no experience with xxx" trope gets old, too. It is convenient when one wishes to comment on things they own, and equally convenient to ignore when one wishes to comment on things they do not own.
If the dates are accurate, the um...above cited poster you distantly described was contributing to this forum for six years before you even arrived. Show some respect!
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:01 PM   #12
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Good question.

My belief is that the #1 reason (and the only really compelling one) is if you need to have more than two hours of air conditioning when stopped without power. IMO, if you don't need that, they aren't worth the hassle. Of course, that is a value judgement, not a statement of fact.
My number 1 reason to use LiFePo4 batteries is they charge so much faster than AGM batteries and they don't mind less than full charge. No solar required.

Number 2 is they maintain a higher voltage during discharge so my diesel cooktop and diesel furnace start more reliably.

Number 3 is they weigh much less and don't pose a threat to my hernia.

Number 4 is 60% more useable power in same size package.
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:25 PM   #13
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Number 2 is they maintain a higher voltage during discharge so my diesel cooktop and diesel furnace start more reliably.
A diesel cooktop?
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:35 PM   #14
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.

Number 2 is they maintain a higher voltage during discharge so my diesel cooktop and diesel furnace start more reliably.

I thought diesel burner ignition would require similar glow plug current drain as air or hydronic furnace, about 8A for startup. Is diesel stove different?
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:41 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by brentfrmMSP View Post
What is the number 1 reason for all of the b van conversions taking place right now?? Is Onan no longer getting the job done or do the new lithium batteries etc offer something that they don't have?? Just curious, been seeing a lot of talk about the conversions lately. Would love to hear from you guys!
Worry free electrical use (of depleted batteries) of any and all electrical systems, any time, any where, the same as if you had shore power. Use your Keurig coffee pot whenever you stop for 5 minutes, pop a cup of water in the microwave any time for hot tea and take advantage of a electrical induction cooktop or other electrical cooking appliances of your choice if you so choose. Large capacity compressor refrigerators are of no concern. The only way you can get that is with at least an 800ah battery bank in a Class B to do that is with lithium ion simply because of weight and space restrictions. The second alternator (under hood generator) takes the place of an Onan to facilitate no-brainer seamless charging while driving with no need for idling. It is transparency, convenience and freedom. You don't have to anticipate where you have to stop for the night because of your batteries.

Air conditioning? That seems to be the reason for those going into it for the first time and may be the trigger but in reality for those living above the Mason-Dixon line and planning trips to get away from cold weather (like Minnesota) rarely encounter the need. Those living in the south do have different priorities and in reality the 48v Volta system is the first to answer air conditioning in an always on in a campground and overnight situation in a Class B.
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Old 07-02-2018, 11:47 PM   #16
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Worry free electrical use (of depleted batteries) of any and all electrical systems, any time, any where, the same as if you had shore power. Use your Keurig coffee pot whenever you stop for 5 minutes, pop a cup of water in the microwave any time for hot tea and take advantage of a electrical induction cooktop or other electrical cooking appliances of your choice if you so choose. Large capacity compressor refrigerators are of no concern. The only way you can get that is with at least an 800ah battery bank in a Class B to do that is with lithium ion simply because of weight and space restrictions.
Yes, except that I have achieved everything you mention with my 440Ah of AGM. i have every one of the amenities you mention, and have a similar travel pattern to yours. Power is not an issue, ever. Please note that I actually own 440Ah of AGM, so I have portfolio to comment. I guess anyone commenting who does not own 440Ah of AGM is just a "Google jockey".

What I CAN'T do is run my A/C for more than 2 hours. Hence my original comment.
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Old 07-03-2018, 12:17 AM   #17
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If the dates are accurate, the um...above cited poster you distantly described was contributing to this forum for six years before you even arrived. Show some respect!
Several years ago, he asked me not to mention him by name in my posts. I have generally tried to respect this request. Sometimes it leads to some strained wording. You should not read anything more than that into my chosen phrasing.
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Old 07-03-2018, 01:00 AM   #18
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Several years ago, he asked me not to mention him by name in my posts. I have generally tried to respect this request. Sometimes it leads to some strained wording. You should not read anything more than that into my chosen phrasing.
Thanks for the explanation which you surely don't owe me. Actually, I was just kidding around.
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Old 07-03-2018, 01:11 AM   #19
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I thought diesel burner ignition would require similar glow plug current drain as air or hydronic furnace, about 8A for startup. Is diesel stove different?
I don't think starting the Wallas / Webasto diesel cooktop is a current problem. It voltage problem. Even with 10awg wires to stove it would have trouble when the AGM batteries were down near 50% and the voltage was marginal. Manual states 12.6vdc required to start.

No problem with the near constant 13+ volts of the Lithium batteries.

Similar trouble with the D5 once it had a few years of service and probably a little carbon buildup.

No problem starting either one with Lithium even at high altitude. D5 is now a D2 with altitude compensation.
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Old 07-03-2018, 01:28 AM   #20
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If the dates are accurate, the um...above cited poster you distantly described was contributing to this forum for six years before you even arrived. Show some respect!
Yes, he took a shot at me about the heated garage. It was noted. I guess my contributions on this forum are not appreciated by the moderator. I probably should move on.
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