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Old 12-13-2015, 12:56 PM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markopolo View Post
This explains it a bit better:

Attachment 3056

It's from: http://www.progressivedyn.com/prod_d...ndant_card.pdf

I think it is:

Quick press of the button: Boost mode
3 second press: Normal mode
6 second press: Storage mode

It probably stays in Boost mode for 4 hours. Then 30 hours in Normal mode. Then it goes to Storage mode if no battery usage detected. Equalize mode (15 min boost to 14.4V every 21 hours) is an automatic subroutine of Storage mode.
It sure would be nice if that is the way it works, as it would make life a lot easier for you. Sure doesn't match the other description.

I think PD needs to hire a technical writer to clear up their literature .

As a side note, although you didn't here it from me for liability reasons, I have found that one of the best ways to jump close together contacts, like the ones in the pic, is with a needle nose pliers. You can reach into places, that are much tougher to get at with other methods, really easily most times.
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Old 12-13-2015, 01:30 PM   #42
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I think I need to find a UC3846 chip on the board. UC3846 | PWM and Resonant Controller | Offline and Isolated DC/DC Controllers and Converters | Description & parametrics

It's not on the top of the board but there are some chips on the bottom but it's covered by a metal plate on standoffs. I'll have to disassemble to see. This is a test project - not the converter in the van.

I also have a non-working PD 9160 - no DC volts out (maybe millivolts). If any has an idea of what specific parts to test I'll have a go at it. Again - just a hobby test project.

---------------------------

Back to general charging info:

I think needing only 0.3 amps to support 14.4V at the end of the Boost phase shows that the batteries are all in pretty good condition. Because of that, in the Trimetric I upped the size of the bank to the full sum of the 20hr AH rate of all the batteries. Originally I had de-rated them 5% because of age and mismatch.

Booster - how's your testing coming along?
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Old 12-13-2015, 03:47 PM   #43
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It would be interesting if you could get the 9160 working to see how it behaves. Interesting on the controller chip. I had always assumed that the charger folks were programming their own specs into the chargers, but it looks like that one may have a lot already built in. I know very little about that kind of stuff, so could be way off. Are the PD units flash upgradable like some are?

I finished the latest test a couple of days ago, but held off a bit to let the PD discussion run without mixing, as I think it very interesting and could apply to quite a few people.

I took a wild guess and ran a 50% recharge at 14.6/13.6v with the return amp transition to float at 2 amps. I had run previous 50% tests at 14.3/13.3 and 14.6/13.3v with 1 amp setting for the transition. The two earlier tests showed that it took nearly the same amount of time to go from 2 amps of charging to 1 amp of charging, as the entire rest of cycle took. Roughly 6.5 hours to get to 2 hours, roughly 5.5 to get from 2 to 1 hour. I don't have a data logger, so it all running in and out to see what is going on, so not really accurate. Good enough for this, though, I think. Lifeline recommends using .5%C to transition in the literature, but when I talked to folks like Blue Sea in the past they thought if the batteries will go lower than that, it would be good to go lower, and that the battery manufacturers were recommending higher because that is where it will wind up as the batteries age. We can get to a little under .2%. The question for me is if the nearly double time at absorption is doing more harm or good.

The information and charts from Fullriver and Powerstream that I put up earlier led me to believe that there may be intent from the battery manufacturers to stop a little early and finish the charging of the last little bit with float to get down under the gassing voltage for the batteries for the extra hours.

The new test was to see if using the higher voltages and stopping earlier, would allow full charge in an overnight (periodic totally full charge) stop while on the road.

I caught the float transition at 2 amps this time, right at 6.75 hours, which is basically the same as I saw it at 2 amps on the earlier test, so consistent. 5.5 hours later (when it would have been done if left at 14.6v) the float amps were at .4 amps and 13.6v. I let it run overnight at the 13.6v without checking it, and 8 hours later it was at .2 amps and 13.6v. I know that totally full at 13.3v is consistently .1 amp, so I turned down the float voltage and turned on some lights to take off the surface charge of .3v. Let it settle for an hour and it was right at .1 amp, so totally full. Unfortunately, I was sleeping when the amps quit dropping, so I don't know when in 8 hours it actually was done . It had been dropping by about .075 amps per hour since it went to float, so that would be about 3 hours to get to the .2amp from the .4 it was when last checked. I need to confirm just where that point is.

If the 3 hours is right, it shows that by doing the ending 1 amp of charge at float only changed that part of cycle by 55%, and the total cycle time by 25%, which is less than I expected, a bit more than I had hoped for.

How this fits into our real world camping is a huge "it depends". A 15 hour charge cycle is kind of right on the edge of what fits our "normal for us" stay time when we are at a full service campground after 3-6 days of offgrid. That would make it probably good most of the time. This was also based on a 50% recharge, which would be very big for us, I think (220ah), to need when we got to the campground. Even a relatively short drive with alternator at 175+amps is going to gets us to a much lower recovery needed, and the top off stays are usually timed so we are going between nice, longer, off grid, places, so there would certainly be some driving. After 3.25 hours in this test, the batteries were only accepting 15.8 amps with the 100 amp charger that had run at full output for only 1 hour, so even doubling the initial charge rate would only shorten that time by .5 hour to under 3 hours, though, but we save at least 3 hours of shore power cycle. At that point, the solar would be capable most of the time to continue the charging at that amp amount and less, so if we stop somewhere it still will be helping. The 3 hours saved on the shore charge cycle would make an overnight fillup pretty easy going to float early and letting it finish the charge.

Still a little early to say for sure, but it looks like letting the float finish things has no real downside other than time, and may have benefits by cutting the time in the gassing voltage area by about 45%. I do think that road settings and home settings will be different, though.

So back to the original subject of the discussion-settings-most likely

For us while on the road 14.6/13.6 with a 2 amp (.5%) return amp to float transition that will need 8-9 hours to finish to full

At home 14.3/13.3 with a 2 amp (.5%) return amp to float transition that will need longer to finish to full, but doesn't matter. I will also probably use the charger "silent" mode, once the batteries are brought to totally full. This is like the profile davydd now has in his ARV that shuts off after a time at float and then does a full charge cycle when the batteries reach a set voltage, which I will probably have at 12.7v or so.

The changes are all done on the remote panel and take less than a minute, so no big deal there.
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Old 12-15-2015, 02:37 PM   #44
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Is float 13.6V in the 14.6V/13.6V setting and 13.3V in the 14.3V/13.3V setting?

Just for info: My PD unit exited 14.4V mode at 0.3A then did 30 hours at 13.6V. I can't remember the amps but think it was around 0.1 . In storage at 13.2V yesterday the Trimetric was showing 00.0 amps in so it's less than 1/2 an amp. (Note: I suspect the real voltage is up to 0.1V less in all PD modes than the Trimetric shows.)

I've previously seen 00.1 amp at 13.2V so the full charge cycle seems to have had a beneficial affect on capacity.

You could experiment with 14.3V & 14.4V at home to see if there's any difference in the amps in at 13.3V float after a suitable amount of time has elapsed.

Just curious - can you program more than two ending amp events?
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Old 12-15-2015, 05:19 PM   #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markopolo View Post
Is float 13.6V in the 14.6V/13.6V setting and 13.3V in the 14.3V/13.3V setting?

Just for info: My PD unit exited 14.4V mode at 0.3A then did 30 hours at 13.6V. I can't remember the amps but think it was around 0.1 . In storage at 13.2V yesterday the Trimetric was showing 00.0 amps in so it's less than 1/2 an amp. (Note: I suspect the real voltage is up to 0.1V less in all PD modes than the Trimetric shows.)

I've previously seen 00.1 amp at 13.2V so the full charge cycle seems to have had a beneficial affect on capacity.

You could experiment with 14.3V & 14.4V at home to see if there's any difference in the amps in at 13.3V float after a suitable amount of time has elapsed.

Just curious - can you program more than two ending amp events?
There are several of the normal charge profiles in the Magnum, including a couple for AGM, but I am using the "custom" setting that allows the absorption and float voltages to be set to whatever you want.

It is interesting that your batteries have dropped to even lower amps at float. Most of the "conditioning" procedures are a semi controlled overcharge, so I would imagine just getting full and holding at absorption (like the PD probably is doing on it fixed timer) could also help. I think your batteries are UPS backup style IIRC, and they may also be made to draw almost nothing when full. Is the temp the same between the two tests? They will probably take less when colder.

I have checked 14.3/14.4/14.5/14.6v charger cycles and if I take them all the way to the lowest return amps setting of 1 amp, they all settled at .1amp of float current at 13.3v so it seems that full is full. They do, however read slightly different at the full point while still in absorption varying from .7 to .8 over the range. The way you described is how I am checking for full. I turn the float to 13.3v lock it in and let it sit until the amps stabilize, with .1amp being the magic number. I can make it settle a bit quicker by running light to help take off surface charge.

I can't program two separate return amp events at the same time, but can change it during the cycle, it appears.
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Old 12-15-2015, 07:55 PM   #46
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It was cooler when I last checked. And, come to think of it, I very briefly took them all up to 14.8V a few times on the old style stand alone charger I put on while figuring out how to force the PD to go into bulk mode. That would qualify as a brief conditioning charge.

55% of the 391 AH battery bank are UPS style batteries. Also, the two chassis batteries are in the mix while charging.

---------------

I just checked again a few minutes ago mainly for this:

Quote:
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Just to add - I'm going to wait to see if the boost to 14.4V for 15 minutes every 21 hours can meet the Trimetric Charged setpoint criteria before doing any other work or system tests.
The 15 minute boost to 14.4V met the Charged criteria I set on the Trimetric. (14.3V & 1 amp in or less). dSC is .7 and dSE is 4. Voltage is 13.2V and 00.0 amps in so still less than 1/10th amp in on float.

They're full

Am I reading that right: 00.0 is less than 1/10 ? Less than 100mA?
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Old 12-15-2015, 09:49 PM   #47
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Sure sounds full to me, zero in is about as low as it will go, I would think

Now that you are full up, maybe for the first time, it might be interesting to rerun one of your high load tests to see if the voltage holds higher.
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Old 12-15-2015, 10:04 PM   #48
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Yes, that's not very clear to anyone that doesn't know that the Trimetric with the 500A shunt only displays one number after the decimal point for amps. I should have posted 00.0x

I wonder if it rounds up or just truncates? Time to read through the docs.
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Old 12-15-2015, 11:29 PM   #49
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Yes, that's not very clear to anyone that doesn't know that the Trimetric with the 500A shunt only displays one number after the decimal point for amps. I should have posted 00.0x

I wonder if it rounds up or just truncates? Time to read through the docs.
I think it rounds up and down, IIRC. The voltage setting is calibratable, IIRC also, if you have a very good meter to compare it too.

You are still more accurate than the Magnum. It really surprised me that it only read to .1 amps resolution, but surprised me even more that it appears to not really have .1 resolution and jumps in increments of .2amps. My .1 amp is shown as flashing between 0.2 and 0.0amps. When it spends about the same time on each, I am saying it is .1, which it does when all is full.
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Old 12-17-2015, 12:42 PM   #50
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An update on forcing modes on the PD unit and some info that might help others who like the idea of a periodic boost in voltage on batteries in storage mode.

I tried the "turn the PD4045 converter off at the breaker, disconnect the batteries at the switch and then turn the converter back on method" to force bulk mode (14.4V) and it worked again. It seems easy.

I was able to preemptively return to 13.6V mode by turning the converter off at the breaker and leaving the the battery switch on, then after a while, turning the converter back on. I'm a bit vague on the elapsed time because I was working on the batteries cleaning the lugs and posts and adding a new buss bar. I could then optionally force a voltage drop to 13.2V by using the Gel mode switch I installed.

Basically, you can have pretty good control over this automatic charger if or when needed.

The periodic boost (14.4V for 15 minutes every 21 hours) is enough to meet the Charged criteria I specified on the Trimetric which is 14.3V or more with 1 amp or less needed for that voltage. Confirmed twice now. Note: That was with starting with fully charged batteries.

I like the idea of the periodic boost - it would be nice to choose daily or every other day though.

If anyone is programming in a periodic boost my data should give an idea of what to expect. I'd call this a medium sized battery bank for a B van; 391 AH plus two heavy duty starting batteries in the charging mix.
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Old 12-17-2015, 01:14 PM   #51
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It sounds like you have found a way around the "smart" or not so smart part of the charger to get it to do what you want.

Sometime if you catch it doing the periodic boost, it might be interesting to watch the Trimetric amps to see how long it takes to get to "charged" amps in the cycle. It would give you an idea if it is doing the charge too often, as it would read the charged amps right away. 21 hours is not very long between charges. PD, I think, says it was designed to stir electrolyte in when cells in the literature.
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Old 12-17-2015, 02:26 PM   #52
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I recall the amps tapering very quickly last night. I think the 21 hrs is more often than needed but could be wrong. The original two plus the two starter batteries have been plugged in most of the time coming up on 4 years now and seem to be in great condition.
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