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Old 12-30-2018, 05:53 PM   #1
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Default Lithium swap anyone?

My 210 roadtrek has 2 6v trojan t-105s that are about 8 years old now and still hanging in there. I have 250 watts solar and boondock frequently. All LED lighting. Have been trolling lately about the new lithium replacements (12v) offered from a few companies that are supposed to work fine on AGM charge settings. Trojan unfortunately has been giving me the runaround for almost 2 months on pricing and availability (now starting to think they do not actually have them out yet). Benefits on weight reduction and usage seem to be very good, and pricing i know will be a shocker. Has anyone done a swap out with lithiums yet? Which brand, And what are the results showing? Happy New Year to all.
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Old 12-31-2018, 12:45 AM   #2
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Surprised you have gotten no replies. Does that mean no one has done it? Temperature is the problem. If you are located where it never freezes then Battleborn makes one that replaces the T105, you can read about it on their website and they do ship. You do have to be home to sign for it and you cannot schedule delivery for your convenience. If you are not home they will return it to Battleborn immediately. Just an FYI. These complications are due to it being worth $1000 and considered hazardous material.

Can't get a location From your profile.
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Old 12-31-2018, 06:10 PM   #3
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Default Lithium swap

In northern arkansas, so good bit of freezing, but we are fair weather travelers so avoid the summers in the south and winters in the north. Trojan says their lithium is ok for freezing weather, but....? So far looks like about $2400 for two batteries in parallel with some other vendors. Will chk out battleborn. Thanks.
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Old 12-31-2018, 07:31 PM   #4
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Give Lithionics a look with their plug and play system...
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Old 12-31-2018, 11:13 PM   #5
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The Battleborn batteries are only 50 amp hours each, I note. If you don't provide heaters lithiums need to be inside.
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Old 01-01-2019, 12:03 AM   #6
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It is our understanding that the most limiting temperature restriction on lithiums is the "Do Not Charge Below This Temperature" limitation which most understand to be freezing. If you're not traveling in the cold months, the batteries themselves are good down to zero (or slightly colder).

We have had lithiums in service for just under two years. However, we haven't pushed these limits. And ours are not AGM 'drop in' replacements . . . so can't directly respond to your question. We, however, remain suspicious about 'drop-in' lithiums as AGM charging voltages are higher than conventional lithiums. Our system, for example, is currently (during this off, non-travel season) being maintained at 13.3 volts. During the travel season we run that up to 13.4 volts (which is essentially fully charged - - at least it's 90% of full charge). Only for SOC instrumentation re-calibration or when undertaking a full battery capacity test/check do we run the voltage higher, then only to 14.2 volts and that is for a limited and closely monitored duration.
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Old 01-01-2019, 05:48 PM   #7
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I'm in the process of adding lithium to make a parallel AGM/Lithium setup, so not really a 'swap'. But the plan is to use the existing inverter/charger as well as alternator based charging. You can follow my progress (and other's too) in this thread;

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...-a-8478-7.html


After starting this project, I can tell you from experience that buying a 'drop in' will be easier. But on the upside, I'm mostly done and the DIY approach has cost me less than $1000 with about the usable power equivalent of adding 3 100Ah AGM batteries..
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Old 01-02-2019, 02:48 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Winston View Post
It is our understanding that the most limiting temperature restriction on lithiums is the "Do Not Charge Below This Temperature" limitation which most understand to be freezing. If you're not traveling in the cold months, the batteries themselves are good down to zero (or slightly colder).

We have had lithiums in service for just under two years. However, we haven't pushed these limits. And ours are not AGM 'drop in' replacements . . . so can't directly respond to your question. We, however, remain suspicious about 'drop-in' lithiums as AGM charging voltages are higher than conventional lithiums. Our system, for example, is currently (during this off, non-travel season) being maintained at 13.3 volts. During the travel season we run that up to 13.4 volts (which is essentially fully charged - - at least it's 90% of full charge). Only for SOC instrumentation re-calibration or when undertaking a full battery capacity test/check do we run the voltage higher, then only to 14.2 volts and that is for a limited and closely monitored duration.
Progressive Dynamics 9100L lithium charger charges at 14.6 volts. Which is higher than the 14.4 AGM limit. I don't have two years of history but I do have one year and things seem to be going well.

We see 14.6 volts every charge cycle. Why the difference? What brand charger are you using?
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Old 01-02-2019, 08:27 PM   #9
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Battleborn told me that the Triplite charger in my 2013 Roadtrek did not have the right charging voltages to use with their batteries. I recommend that you get in touch with the battery manufactures and ask them to verify that your charger is compatible in case you need to change that out also.
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Old 01-03-2019, 04:38 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbn7hj View Post
Progressive Dynamics 9100L lithium charger charges at 14.6 volts. Which is higher than the 14.4 AGM limit. I don't have two years of history but I do have one year and things seem to be going well.

We see 14.6 volts every charge cycle. Why the difference? What brand charger are you using?
Your 'numbers' are breath-taking. We have three charging sources: 1) a Magnum 2812; 2) 810 watts of solar through a MidNite Classic controller; and, 3) a second 280 amp Nations alternator with an external Balmar regulator. Our 500 ah lithium 'system' came from Starlight Solar (Elite).

All three charging sources have mostly suitable (another topic) programming allowing us to tailor our chargers to our lithium pack. The question, therefore, isn't whether these charges can charge at your elevated voltages, but whether they should.

We have run extensive full charge/discharge cycles on our system. Here is a Table of two of our discharge runs:

Calculated
State of Charge ---Resting Voltage (2 runs)
100%----------------13.71----13.91
90%-----------------13.36----13.36
80%-----------------13.35/6--13.36
70%-----------------13.28
60%-----------------13.21----13.21/22
50%-----------------13.19
40%-----------------13.18----13.19
30%-----------------13.12
20%-----------------13.02----13.04
10%-----------------12.89
0%(500ah)----------12.47----15.50
516ah----------------11.92/93

Based on this table we have selected 13.4 volts as our normal target/operating voltage. If we know we're going to be off-grid for an extended time, we'll reprogram chargers to take us to 100% SOC (generally 13.8 volts).

Although the manufacturer suggests "equalization" charging at 14.2 volts, most commentators caution that maintaining lithiums at 100% may not be healthy for the pack. We do run our charger(s) at 14.2 every few months to check and re-attain 'equalization'. This is equivalent to 3.55 volts/cell. We have deliberately taken the voltage higher to 'see' what happens and were surprised to see how quickly, from 3.55 volts, the cell voltage soars. It is easy to see how damaging charge levels could be attained by taking the charge voltage above 14.2v.

For us, the bottom line is: Why operate this pack above 13.4 volts? Not only do we avoid the possibility of damaging overcharge, but further, by operating between 80-90% SOC we get to use 'most' of our pack's capacity while backing down from that high (100% SOC) charge level that many believe to stress the pack. (Indeed, it is our understanding that for storage, an SOC between 50-60% is recommended).
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