Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 10-11-2018, 10:54 PM   #21
Platinum Member
 
Boxster1971's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,183
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud View Post
Is anyone using a fuel cell in any way to run a/c? Even to just charge batteries with or without solar to run the a/c?



Bud

Not that I've seen. Running the A/C would require a massive fuel cell. But the combination of a big battery bank, max solar and a small fuel cell would allow a lot of A/C use.
__________________
2024 Airstream Interstate 19
Boxster1971 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-11-2018, 11:18 PM   #22
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Arizona, Tempe
Posts: 1,655
Default

The Airforum Efoy thread died last January but it was interesting. The 80AH system is a bit too small, I think.

For the guy that wanted to recharge his batteries in 30 minutes we offer the Lead Acid/Lithium hybrid system.

It appears the SOFC on propane has a life limiting problem of some sort.

All in all a hybrid system with a propane fueled generator running 30 minutes a day is a better solution than the fuel cell though I'm still interested in the fuel cell experiment.
hbn7hj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 12:09 AM   #23
Site Team
 
avanti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbn7hj View Post
All in all a hybrid system with a propane fueled generator running 30 minutes a day is a better solution than the fuel cell
That would be swell. The problem is that I would have to run my genset not "30 minutes", but FIVE HOURS daily to match the power I would get from the (near-silent) fuel cell. This is just not acceptable to many of us.
__________________
Now: 2022 Fully-custom buildout (Ford Transit EcoBoost AWD)
Formerly: 2005 Airstream Interstate (Sprinter 2500 T1N)
2014 Great West Vans Legend SE (Sprinter 3500 NCV3 I4)
avanti is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 12:52 AM   #24
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Arizona, Tempe
Posts: 1,655
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by avanti View Post
That would be swell. The problem is that I would have to run my genset not "30 minutes", but FIVE HOURS daily to match the power I would get from the (near-silent) fuel cell. This is just not acceptable to many of us.
That is the point. For $1500 you would be down to 30 minute generator runs. Less $ if you would settle for a 50 AH Lithium battery. One Lithium battery, one Lithium battery charger, one DC to DC charger and you are there. You do need the space.

I seldom run the generator more than 30 minutes because the initial charge rate is 130 amps. If the sun isn't out I'll run another 15 minutes in the evening. Lead acid batteries charged to 100% daily, rain or shine, with 30 minute generator runs.

I still am hoping for fuel cell success. Efoy is there except for fuel cost. If you could source your own methanol they are there.
hbn7hj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 02:19 AM   #25
Site Team
 
avanti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbn7hj View Post
That is the point. For $1500 you would be down to 30 minute generator runs. Less $ if you would settle for a 50 AH Lithium battery. One Lithium battery, one Lithium battery charger, one DC to DC charger and you are there. You do need the space.

I seldom run the generator more than 30 minutes because the initial charge rate is 130 amps. If the sun isn't out I'll run another 15 minutes in the evening. Lead acid batteries charged to 100% daily, rain or shine, with 30 minute generator runs.

I still am hoping for fuel cell success. Efoy is there except for fuel cost. If you could source your own methanol they are there.
I think we are talking past each other. If you can get by running your genset 30 minutes/day, then you are consuming only a tiny amount of power every day.

I can easily do that now with my second engine generator on a quick trip to the store (or whatever). My interest in fuel cells stems from my desire to run the A/C for significant periods. I can do two hours now starting with a full charge. With a fuel cell, I would be able to double that without adding battery.
__________________
Now: 2022 Fully-custom buildout (Ford Transit EcoBoost AWD)
Formerly: 2005 Airstream Interstate (Sprinter 2500 T1N)
2014 Great West Vans Legend SE (Sprinter 3500 NCV3 I4)
avanti is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 03:10 AM   #26
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Arizona, Tempe
Posts: 1,655
Default

Probably are talking past each other. I use up to 100AH per day, most of it replaced by generator but some by solar (200 watts of panels.) That is not a tiny amount of power with the major draw being sat TV and furnace. I need to use the catalytic heater more.

I am using that amount of power with short generator runs. The hybrid system allows that with it's 130 amp charging rate and that is the point I'm trying to make. A full lithium system would be a little better, probably.

A/C use is not in my power budget. Not sure how I could handle that. I'm at 5000' in the spring and 9500' in the summer. Probably would need 400AH more of lithium battery and that probably wouldn't do it. A/C for me requires the generator.
hbn7hj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 11:57 AM   #27
Bud
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: LA
Posts: 1,529
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbn7hj View Post
Probably are talking past each other. I use up to 100AH per day, most of it replaced by generator but some by solar (200 watts of panels.) That is not a tiny amount of power with the major draw being sat TV and furnace. I need to use the catalytic heater more.

I am using that amount of power with short generator runs. The hybrid system allows that with it's 130 amp charging rate and that is the point I'm trying to make. A full lithium system would be a little better, probably.

A/C use is not in my power budget. Not sure how I could handle that. I'm at 5000' in the spring and 9500' in the summer. Probably would need 400AH more of lithium battery and that probably wouldn't do it. A/C for me requires the generator.
I'm wondering if the best solution for moderate amp use with a new B would be to blow off the LOUD onan and solar, then go with agm and second generator underhood vs solar and LOUD onan.

Bud
Bud is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 12:33 PM   #28
Site Team
 
avanti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbn7hj View Post
A/C use is not in my power budget. Not sure how I could handle that. I'm at 5000' in the spring and 9500' in the summer. Probably would need 400AH more of lithium battery and that probably wouldn't do it. A/C for me requires the generator.
As I said earlier in this thread, I could easily handle 4-5 hours of A/C every night if I had a continuous 500A charge source such as a fuel cell. THAT is what I find exciting about the technology. If A/C is not a goal, existing technologies are more than adequate. An Onan would not be my first choice, though (see below).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud View Post
I'm wondering if the best solution for moderate amp use with a new B would be to blow off the LOUD onan and solar, then go with agm and second generator underhood vs solar and LOUD onan.
Almost certainly. That is exactly what I have now. Since I installed my second engine generator several years ago, I have literally NEVER used my Onan in anger. Not sure why I don't just pull it. You still want modest solar, though. Best way to keep your AGMs full and healthy.
__________________
Now: 2022 Fully-custom buildout (Ford Transit EcoBoost AWD)
Formerly: 2005 Airstream Interstate (Sprinter 2500 T1N)
2014 Great West Vans Legend SE (Sprinter 3500 NCV3 I4)
avanti is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 12:35 PM   #29
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 11,919
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud View Post
I'm wondering if the best solution for moderate amp use with a new B would be to blow off the LOUD onan and solar, then go with agm and second generator underhood vs solar and LOUD onan.

Bud

That question is why a lot of people are going to the engine generator, which has it's pros and cons, mostly pros if you don't need AC AC being needed changes the equation IMO as it take huge amounts of batteries, usually lithium and even so needs a lot of engine running. 12 hours of AC is going to use over 1000ah which have to be replaced and the engine generator is going to only average somewhere in the 170ah per hour, so something like 6 hours of driving or idling to replace the AC use.


The downside of ditching the solar on an AGM setup is that the solar is very useful for doing the low amp "top off" charging that takes many hours (like about 8 hours) once you get to 70% SOC. Without solar you would have to run the engine that long or be plugged in to get the AGM batteries full and prevent capacity walkdown.
booster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 01:41 PM   #30
Platinum Member
 
markopolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 8,828
Default

Take a look at this cornucopia of more exciting offerings: Telecogroup/Telair - Products

As we are talking about DC output in this topic then the 230V AC output doesn't matter when the "super-silent" LPG generator is coupled with a 230V AC input battery charger -> Telecogroup/Telair - ENERGY 8012G

Those gensets look similar in size and shape to the Onan's in Class B's.

-------------------------

For a larger RV's with many more options for mounting and storage of a generator then the electric start Champion Dual Fuel would likely be the best price point to beat. -> https://www.championpowerequipment.c...fuel-inverter/ <- couple that with auto gen starting capabilities of a Samlex EVO 3012 and its 130A DC charger output it is way more capable then this other stuff. It could cycle the air conditioner as needed during the day and also charge the batteries up for night quiet time A/C use. If the battery bank was a hybrid 200Ah lithium / 400Ah AGM combo what more could anyone need?
markopolo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 02:30 PM   #31
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Colorado
Posts: 106
Default

Marko, have you found a YouTube demo to see how silent it really is? Looks awesome.

Avanti, you mean 50-60 amps right, 500w?
Mfturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 03:15 PM   #32
Site Team
 
avanti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfturner View Post
Avanti, you mean 50-60 amps right, 500w?
Not sure what you are asking. The WATT unit can supposedly produce 500 watts continuously, which is north of 40 amps.
__________________
Now: 2022 Fully-custom buildout (Ford Transit EcoBoost AWD)
Formerly: 2005 Airstream Interstate (Sprinter 2500 T1N)
2014 Great West Vans Legend SE (Sprinter 3500 NCV3 I4)
avanti is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 03:18 PM   #33
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Colorado
Posts: 106
Default

Avanti, thanks, I was just making sure I understood post #28
Mfturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 03:25 PM   #34
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Posts: 425
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxster1971 View Post
Several folks on AirForums have been using the EFOY fuel cells for years.

Here is one of the longest threads that I'm reading now.
The fuel cell experiment - Airstream Forums
Excellent find Boxster! Hands-on report beyond the usual proof-of-concept projects. We learn that the E-Foy works but it has to work most of the time (max of 3 amps for the E80), even for low consumption scenarios. And it hums ...all night, when you would need it most to supplement solar charging with continuous low power charging. And the E-Foy is very quiet, rated at 22 db, imagine the Watt system at 45 db at 3ft. Works best with external storage compartments in class A and C. The rated consumption is also an issue regarding the availability/delivery of the required and pricey extra pure methanol. At least it is a very reliable albeit pricey solution for a (semi-)quiet alternative to generators.

E-Foy Q&A from Westernmarine
EFOY Q & A





.
GeorgeB is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 03:34 PM   #35
Platinum Member
 
markopolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 8,828
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfturner View Post
Marko, have you found a YouTube demo to see how silent it really is? Looks awesome.

I haven't looked at any reviews or any videos of any of the items I've posted links to. I know I just don't need any additional power source at the present time. It's fun to look at what is available though.
markopolo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-12-2018, 07:43 PM   #36
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Colorado
Posts: 106
Default

Sounds good, I too was just curious. I'm in between vans right now, so I have too much time on my hands. Our van we pick up at the end of the month will attempt to solve this with 13.5 kw of Volta, high capacity generator, and more efficient ac. I doubt I'll need to think about it much, although I probably will until I get used to it lol.
Mfturner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2018, 07:56 PM   #37
Platinum Member
 
Boxster1971's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,183
Default

This short thread on AirForums from last year discusses several available SOFC fuel cells.

The Fuel Cell - Airstream Forums
__________________
2024 Airstream Interstate 19
Boxster1971 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2018, 08:07 PM   #38
New Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: KS
Posts: 17
Default

James from the Fit RV spoke with WATT at the Pomona show. Here's a link to the blog: https://www.thefitrv.com/rv-tips/the...n-rv-near-you/

The WATT rep confirms a few new details: WATT was certified for use in April; the units for Roadtrek will be placed underneath the vans; the cells can be stacked (although there is no indication that Roadtrek will stack them); the output is dc; and there will be a remote control panel. WATT is also working on a home application that sounds interesting. It would generate 1.5 kw and use natural gas.
Gemlake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2018, 08:10 PM   #39
Platinum Member
 
Boxster1971's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,183
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeB View Post
Excellent find Boxster! Hands-on report beyond the usual proof-of-concept projects. We learn that the E-Foy works but it has to work most of the time (max of 3 amps for the E80), even for low consumption scenarios. And it hums ...all night, when you would need it most to supplement solar charging with continuous low power charging. And the E-Foy is very quiet, rated at 22 db, imagine the Watt system at 45 db at 3ft. Works best with external storage compartments in class A and C. The rated consumption is also an issue regarding the availability/delivery of the required and pricey extra pure methanol. At least it is a very reliable albeit pricey solution for a (semi-)quiet alternative to generators.

E-Foy Q&A from Westernmarine
EFOY Q & A .
Thanks George. The EFOY Q&A got me to look closer at the EFOY web pages and I noticed they have teamed up with MasterVolt to created an integrated system.

https://www.efoy-comfort.com/efoy-ma...energy-systems

Neat stuff - this pdf of the integrated system looks very interesting and should give WATT lots of competition if some USA RV manufacturer picks it up as an option to compete with Roadtrek.
https://www.efoy-comfort.com/sites/d...d%20EN_neu.pdf
__________________
2024 Airstream Interstate 19
Boxster1971 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-13-2018, 08:27 PM   #40
Site Team
 
avanti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 5,321
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxster1971 View Post
Neat stuff - this pdf of the integrated system looks very interesting and should give WATT lots of competition if some USA RV manufacturer picks it up as an option to compete with Roadtrek.
The special, unobtainable fuel makes EFOY a total non-starter, at least for me. As I say, I am looking for less hassle, not more.

Competition is good, though.
__________________
Now: 2022 Fully-custom buildout (Ford Transit EcoBoost AWD)
Formerly: 2005 Airstream Interstate (Sprinter 2500 T1N)
2014 Great West Vans Legend SE (Sprinter 3500 NCV3 I4)
avanti is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 01:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.