2014 MARVAC RV Show in Novi, MI - saw the Thor Axis

Mike · 02-08-2014, 01:12 AM

Saw an Axis today at the MARVAC RV Show in Novi, MI. Very nice unit. No pictures sadly, as I forgot the camera, in our haste to get there before the crowds, but that didn't work out well either.
The large forward electric loft bed over the cockpit was a noteworthy and amazing feature, and an added perk is that it can be used to store valuables, when in the raised position, because it requires a key to operate the raise/lower controls. The dry bathroom is kind of funky with the folding door, sort of larger than a typical dry bath, as it adds part of the aisle to the mix. It can be locked into the open position in the aisle like a divider, to separate the forward and aft sleeping/living areas. Lots (63.5cuft) of external and internal storage compartments, with the biggest one at the rear under the bed. Overall, it was pretty nice. MSRP around US$94,900 and "on sale" price at the show was US$65,900. I didn't buy it. Yet.
Also saw a Winnie Trend. The 23B model with the rear dry bathroom, which was huge, and also had an electric loft drop down bed which was also huge. Sacrificing the always made up bed for the huge bathroom isn't a problem, because you can lower the loft bed into sleeping position in less than a minute. Lots of features, too, and the MSRP on it was US$92,247 and the "on sale" price was US$76,995. My only problem with it is the performance of the Ducato chassis/drive train. According to the Winnebago guy on site who I spoke with, it truly is a Fiat Ducato that has been rebadged as the ProMaster. According to him, very few features were modified by Dodge (probably mostly EPA/NHTSA stuff) from the original Fiat engineered product. I'll have to wait and see on that one after we get some real world performance reviews on them. Estimated fuel economy is 14-18 mpg on the Trend.

DW liked both the Trend (bathroom), and the Axis (loft bed/bathroom/storage), but the height was an issue for her, she thought it made the overall coach look massive. I think it makes it look bigger, but it's only a foot longer (25') than the Trend (24'). I loved the Axis, and particularly the price. A lot of coach for the money, and only 7'10" wide.
I asked about the Travato. They didn't have one there today, and the W rep said they had one in transit that may or may not show up in time, due to the snow storms.

Davydd · 02-08-2014, 02:12 PM

The Minneapolis RV show has an Axis on the floor but I didn't go inside it. They also had the Travato there but no Trend. All in all, echoing my wife's comments about this year's RVs. . .boring. She didn't like a single B she saw.

booster · 02-08-2014, 03:05 PM

We did go inside the Axis at the Minneapolis show and have to agree that it is a lot RV for the money, especially when compared to the very costly class b's. As we discussed in another discussion, I think this kind of construction could be very serious class b and class c competitor, if the adjusted the height and width a little, getting the size more like b. I haven't pulled out all the dimensions, but how do the height and width compare to the "b+" type units? The Axis looks taller and wider, but it could just be an illusion because of the flat front on the Axis.

I think the Travato was on sale for about $66-67K. We don't care for the floorplan, and the fit and finish weren't great, but at $40k or more less than other rigs, it should put some price pressure on the other manufacturers. Maybe it will slow down the relentless "race to the top" on price that is ruining the market for all the less than rich actual travelers.

As far as what we would get if we had to chose from what was there. We didn't find anything that we would prefer over our Roadtrek C190P. First choice of Sprinters would be, far and away, the Roadtrek Adventurous CS. Nicest little things were on the Great West Sprinters with the sidling, folding, clear underneath couch and siding screen door.

Things we noticed that we hadn't before. The Pleasure-way on the Chevy doesn't have a drop floor, and even though we are short, we noticed the extra stooping needed to get into it. We tried a lot of the sliding doors on various units, and found out we really like the plain old hinged door better. The sliders require considerable force ( and these were all level), and they have to be moving pretty fast to latch. DW had a lot of trouble getting the doors shut consistently, if at all, on some models. She is under 5' tall, and could not reach over a counter and get enough force on the door to get it to slide. On the units where they limit the travel because of things totally in the way of 1/2 the door, there wasn't enough distance for her to get the door going fast enough to latch.

Not the most efficient layout because of the engine out front, but the Jayco Seneca was impressive. Techinically a class C, I guess, but it is built on a real live Freightliner truck chassis, with a Cummins M2 diesel. This one is a real truck, in all senses of the word. Truck wheels and tires, 6 steps up into the RV section, Freightliner truck cab, engine you can get to under a regular old hood. We thought it was a good offering at just a bit under $170K. If the RV section held up, this would be a rig you could drive anywhere for lots and lots of miles.

Mike · 02-08-2014, 03:35 PM

I thought the Axis was a comfortable size throughout, and I can't see where you could reduce it's size much without sacrificing something somewhere, like storage or just plain elbow room. It's got just enough room and features that it seemed far more comfortable than our Roadtrek with it's extra 5.5' of length, and maybe an extra foot of width. Maybe they could reduce the height to make it more versatile in height restricted situations and to reduce drag a bit. That said, the size was just about perfect for me to use it as a longer term getaway, so a bit bigger is better. It's got around 5500-6000lbs of GCWR available for cargo and/or a towable, and it's apparently got loads of power, both vehicular and electrical. If we wanted to use our Cavalier as a toad, it would be possible. There wasn't much we didn't like about it, except the fuel economy which will be worse than the Roadtrek. I liked the way the folding bathroom door acted as a divider between the rear bath/bed area and the forward bed/living/cab area.
The down side was the RV show crowd crush made it impossible to really get a useful demo or any good Q&A from the dealership sales guy I spoke (yelled?) with. Just too many interruptions while I was trying to ask my questions. I have to find one at a dealership nearby, and finish the recon mission in less chaotic conditions.
I asked about non-show pricing and got the expected "buy now or the price goes up" song and dance, and he suggested it would be closer to the MSRP at one of their (General RV) locations. I was going to tell him I'd seen them online at Canadian dealers for what he suggested they would go for on their lots after the show, but it was too noisy, and I wasn't going to haggle over something that I wasn't going to buy then anyway. I'm pretty sure I've seen them online in the US for between US$65,000-US$69,000. In Canada online for around C$79,000, which is basically the same price as in the US now with the exchange rate. The $ difference might drive the Canadian price up, as their cost to import rises.

Davydd · 02-08-2014, 03:42 PM

The Axis is not small. To me it is definitely pull a toad and park it on the lot perimeter, and get there and leave it category. In other words, I'd be interested if I were going to be a stay put snow birder for a few months rather than a tourer. I'm not there. But then if I decided to snow bird, I think a trailer would be a better deal.

Exterior Length 25' 6"
Exterior Height 11' 3"
Exterior Width 7' 10"

In looking over the existing chassis offered by manufacturers I can't see how anyone can offer a B size Class A. They just don't make chassis that small. The old 70s Winnebago's were actually smaller and even the old 70s GMC Class As were smaller. No one makes a chassis today as small as those two were. The cab/chassis Class Cs fill that void now so I doubt manufacturers would bother considering such a small potential market. There were a lot of those small Class Cs this year. Lake Region RVs has gone from being a primarily Class B dealer to mostly Class C it seems. Class B is being treated more and more as a boutique offering.

Mike · 02-08-2014, 03:59 PM

They had a Freelander 21QB class C there for a show price of US$49,900, but we didn't like the typical boxy shape and cab over forehead. There was a significant step down from the bed platform that would surely be an ankle breaker, if forgotten for a split second. There were other little items that we didn't like either, but for that price, it was a lot of coach for the money. On a GM 4500 chassis with their 6L (Vortec?) engine option.
I believe that the Axis can be a tourer, if you want/choose to tour in one. For the most part it should be able to handle (spec-wise) most of the same roadways that a long wheelbase Sprinter class B can do, but not all of them, of course. However, it is definitely a more comfortable and roomier option, if you choose to park it somewhere for a longer stay, than just a few days, and it has enough storage and power that the toad or bicycle options are both viable, if you do use it as a mother ship at a preferred campsite.

booster · 02-08-2014, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davydd

In looking over the existing chassis offered by manufacturers I can't see how anyone can offer a B size Class A. They just don't make chassis that small.

How about one of these?

http://www.brownhills.co.uk/16850-fi...0bhp-2014.html

Davydd · 02-08-2014, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by booster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davydd

In looking over the existing chassis offered by manufacturers I can't see how anyone can offer a B size Class A. They just don't make chassis that small.

How about one of these?

http://www.brownhills.co.uk/16850-fi...0bhp-2014.html

That is small. It is about the size of a Travato, RT Agile and P-W Ascent. But it is also not an American offering.

Length: 19'-8"
Width: 7'-8"
Height: 9'-4"

Mike · 02-08-2014, 05:35 PM

Looks like a shorter Axis, with less inside room.
However, it isn't the shoe box on a chassis shape of a more typical class C.
I don't think the class A,B,C matters as much as what works for you.
A GWV Legend works for Davydd, a 2007-8 (heavily modified?) Roadtrek 190P works for booster, and so on. I'm seriously thinking an Axis would work for us.

booster · 02-08-2014, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Davydd

http://www.brownhills.co.uk/16850-fi...0bhp-2014.html

That is small. It is about the size of a Travato, RT Agile and P-W Ascent. But it is also not an American offering.

Length: 19'-8"
Width: 7'-8"
Height: 9'-4"

It is not here now, but the Travato wasn't either, and this is also a Fiat. Sprinters and Transits are also European. The chassis already exists and is being used for motorhomes, so bringing it here would not be any tougher than the Travato, I would think.

Mike · 02-08-2014, 06:15 PM

True. My impression of the Trend was that it was a View, that they pulled the Sprinter out of, and stuffed a Ducato into, instead. Also got rid of the slide, and replaced it with that electric loft bed, which eliminates the need for the slide.

Davydd · 02-08-2014, 06:37 PM

Anything is possible but it is wishful thinking. Americans have different needs and desires than Europeans. The Sprinter is still an import but the Promaster and Transit offerings are North American manufactured. Basically the Sprinter was imported because it filled a niche the antiquated American vans couldn't - the stand up work van. The RVing aspect was just a very small subset of Sprinter use. Unless you know something, I can't see a small A in America now that there are three Euro style van offerings and safer van derived cab/chassis offerings. There would have to be a strong demand for smaller chassis for a myriad of other uses and that I don't see.

All I said was all the chassis designed and built for our American market here in America are now way too big to ever be a B size. The Thor Axis and the Winnebago Via are about as small as you can get or we would have seen smaller. Still they are a foot and a half longer and taller and a foot wider than the largest B Sprinter which in turn the largest Sprinter is a foot and a half longer than the Transit and three feet longer than the Promaster.

The smallest Winnebago in 1970 was built on a Ford 350 chassis and was 17'-4" long, 7'-0" wide and 9'-3" high.

Here are your old GMC Motorhome options from the 70s.

booster · 02-08-2014, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

Looks like a shorter Axis, with less inside room.
However, it isn't the shoe box on a chassis shape of a more typical class C.
I don't think the class A,B,C matters as much as what works for you.
A GWV Legend works for Davydd, a 2007-8 (heavily modified?) Roadtrek 190P works for booster, and so on. I'm seriously thinking an Axis would work for us.

I totally agree. As I mentioned earlier, I thought the Axis was a nice unit at a good value for those who want a bit more space, like you are looking for. I think it squarely takes on the B+ and C models, and has some advantages.

Who knows where the market will wind up, but with the class b arena doing so poorly compared to the others, we may see some other options in the future. With the flexibility of build you can get with a class C and even more so with a class A, the unibody trend in vans may come to hurt them, do to lack of flexibility.

Davydd · 02-08-2014, 09:33 PM

Here is your Thor Axis RUV plan.

It is a pretty good plan. I like the bed but like many I would probably leave out the filler cushion. I was in another motorhome that had that bathroom door I think. It was a great idea for creating a nice and spacious bathroom when taking a shower but it seemed rather clunky and difficult to open and close if you just wanted to step in and use the toilet or lav. The steps are inside the motorhome. That's a nice touch rather than an exterior pull out step. The slide can be closed and still not intrude with the sofa. The two front seats look really comfy and work well together with a table between.

Where you are not going to drive this thing. Going to the Sun Road in Glacier National Park, the Needles Highway in the Blackhills, the Skybridge Drive in the Red River Gorge in Kentucky. Those are just a few places this motorhome could not physically go that we have driven recently. You adapt to what you have but I still have to slip into those little strip centers where Starbucks and Caribou coffee shops are often located to placate my wife in the morning. We are not ready to think about committing to those 24 ft. Sprinters. Ours at 22'-9" is probably a tad too long but so far has been doable in all parking spots. I think the Ford Transit is going to be the most popular B in another year. I'm not sure what a small Class A advantage would be over a Small Class C of which I still am not interested in either for the way we travel.

Mike · 02-08-2014, 10:24 PM

Needles Highway, Custer SP, Tunnel 5 (Near Needle's Eye), 8' 4" wide by 12' 0" high - pretty tight for a Sprinter, too? They only mentioned this one and one other, so all the others must be like sailing a battle ship through the Straits of Gibraltar. Yeah, right.

That's where it would be handy to have a toad, or simply rent a car, if you really want to see those places.
I'm sure there must be lots of rentals available near the Needles Hwy, or even tours along those roads. GTTS has them for sure. What would I be doing in Kentucky? Bourbon tours?

I have the Axis brochure and the bathroom door isn't standard as big RVs go. It actually resembles some class B folding bathroom doors, and it's not a show stopper. Everything else was so impressive and interesting, I'm looking to seeing it again, to see if the initial impression was mostly accurate, or if it was just a hysterical claustrophobic hallucination.

Davydd · 02-09-2014, 03:09 AM

I think the shortest height Needles tunnel is 11 feet. 10 feet is the limit on Going to the Sun especially if traveling west because of the cliff overhangs. Yes, if you do go on the Bourbon Trail Tour in Kentucky do not follow your GPS to get to Makers Mark. They route you on the Makers Mark Parkway and that road is a shoulderless road of about 15 feet of pavement width. I drove it but luckily I met only oncoming small compact cars. The point I was making is those small Class As and even the small Class Cs cannot go everywhere a Class B can go. I've seen more than a few RVers in bigger motorhomes get in trouble thinking they can. I guess it is a macho thing.

Toads, to me, are a pain in the ass. Other people don't mind, but if I were to pull one then why sacrifice size in a motorhome? You've already given up the battle of touring go anywhere convenience.

Here's one Needles Highway Tunnel. You can see Mt. Rushmore straight ahead as you drive through.

This is entering the Skybridge Drive Tunnel in Davy Crockett National Forest in Kentucky. It is quite long.

This is inside that tunnel. You're welcome to try it with a Class A or Class C but good luck.

Mike · 02-09-2014, 02:27 PM

I assume these are the only really tight tunnels on the Needles Hwy, as mentioned on the official SD GFP website, as a warning to drivers.
http://gfp.sd.gov/state-parks/directory ... rives.aspx
Also, based on some other web info, it appears there are numerous tours of these tunnels available, oddly enough, by class A sized looking tour buses, like the ones in the pictures.
http://pic80.picturetrail.com/VOL1017/3 ... 504900.jpg
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_wS8Pw8i5AAY/R ... le-Bus.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_cpnOBnxKDAo/TAhEm ... %20Bus.jpg
http://lh4.ggpht.com/_cpnOBnxKDAo/TAhEq ... Tunnel.jpg
So, I guess it's possible to squeeze through some of them, although it looks challenging.
I just googled Needles Highway vehicle restrictions. There's plenty of info out there to plan your tunnel exploration adventures.

booster · 02-09-2014, 04:39 PM

We drove most of the needles highway few years ago, but elected to skip the two smallest tunnels. We could have made it through, but I don't have the best depth perception, so you never know, and DW wouldn't even consider trying. If you skip the two smallest ones, you only lose a very small amount of the miles of the drive, and it does not keep you from getting anywhere. All you lose is a bit of scenery, and not much of that. If you go to this link, and click on "Park Map", you will get a PDF of the map that shows the tunnel locations and sizes.

http://gfp.sd.gov/state-parks/directory/custer/

I did the Road to the Sun in the early 70s on a motorcycle, which was fantastic, but haven't been there in the Roadtrek. Personally, if I want to be able to see the scenery, which is a bit tough if you are driving a road like that, I would take a tour bus and sit back and enjoy the ride. Road to the Sun also can be accessed from both sides, but it is a considerable jaunt around, so again what you miss is the scenery and what is actually up there, not any other destination.

When we were deciding what to buy for an RV, both of those places were considerations we took into account, and wanted to be able to do in whatever we bought. In hindsight, the smaller size we got is much more useful in the day to day campsight, tourist stops, trailhead, type access and use that we do than the couple of single areas like Needles. We would still buy small because of the daily type places we go, but would not buy small just to be able to go to a half dozen places in the country, if we wanted bigger for better day to day use. I would guess, but don't know for sure, that any really nice drives that are too tight for anything bigger than a van would have tours, as all those bigger rigs that show up on Marko's sales lists have to have something to see. Beyond that, there will always be some way around the small road, and driving a small one just to say we did isn't really of interest to us.

Davydd · 02-09-2014, 08:53 PM

Tunnel 4 has a 10'-7" height. That one eliminates most Cs and As. Tunnel 5 is 8'-4" wide. Those tour bus photos must have been publicity stunts. Driving those kind of places whether possible or not are just not something one would care to do in bigger RVs.

There was another major factor that drove us to Class Bs and that was National Forest campgrounds in Minnesota and Wisconsin near where we live. There are just a lot of campsites in them that are limited to around 22-26' lengths and that means total length of vehicle and trailer in many instances. Not all are that restrictive but there are enough to make a difference if you like those kind of places. Natural Bridges National Monument in Utah, another place we've camped now a few times, has the same restriction. The biggest RV I ever saw there was a Winnebago View. Even in campgrounds were big RVs can go you find conditions where campsites left over are left over because no one else but a B vanner can squeeze into them. Then on the other hand we have camped in city RV parks in Las Vegas, New Orleans and Houston with full service and nothing but big rigs and really felt kind of strange.

Davydd · 02-09-2014, 09:17 PM

Here is a small Class C comparable to the View, Navion, Unity size and that Class A Thor Axis. Lake Region RVs had them at the Minneapolis RV Show. Note they have a floor plan similar to the Thor Axis. If one were in the market for a 25 footer RV this might be one to look at. They are priced similar to the Sprinter Class Bs. Lake Region RVs have a few of them with more detailed information and lots of photos.

Renegade Villagio

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