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Old 04-16-2018, 10:05 PM   #1
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Question 2019 Gas Sprinter - not much torque? 9 speed transmission

Hi all

here is a 20 minute video about the 2019 Sprinter..... a few details sprinkled in it.... you sort of have to watch it all to get the few details. It is not concise.

at about 8:30 they talk about engines coming to the USA for the 2019 model.

We would not want to buy Diesel - dont want to deal with DEF, and dont want to deal with different bio-diesel % worry.... also would like the ability to go into Mexico. (etc)

so assuming we buy the GAS 2019 sprinter.... is the torque they talk about kind of whimpy?

Gas comes with a 9 speed transmission, according to the lady in the video who works for Mercedes.



Discuss.

thanks.

John
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:20 PM   #2
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so assuming we buy the GAS 2019 sprinter.... is the torque they talk about kind of whimpy?
The gas engine is listed as 140 KW/350 NM which works out to 187 HP and 258 ft-lb torque. Compared to the 6 cylinder diesel it's the same HP but less torque. It's about the same amount of torque as the Promaster V6, but the Promaster GVWR is almost 1700 pounds less than the Sprinter (9350 vs 11020).
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:23 PM   #3
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The gas engine is listed as 140 KW/350 NM which works out to 187 HP and 258 ft-lb torque. Compared to the 6 cylinder diesel it's the same HP but less torque. It's about the same amount of torque as the Promaster V6, but the Promaster GVWR is almost 1700 pounds less than the Sprinter (9350 vs 11020).
thanks.....

i should have mentioned... we'd be getting the 24' 3500 Sprinter.... so not a light vehicle! and we'd have beds / shower / gear in the back.



I know the 9 speed transmission would help.... but .... a bit worried.

thanks.
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:32 PM   #4
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The other two engines listed were:

6 cylinder diesel
187 HP (140 KW)
325 ft-lb (440 NM)

4 cylinder diesel
161 HP (120 KW)
265 ft-lb (360 NM)
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:34 PM   #5
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The gas engine is listed as 140 KW/350 NM which works out to 187 HP and 258 ft-lb torque. Compared to the 6 cylinder diesel it's the same HP but less torque. It's about the same amount of torque as the Promaster V6, but the Promaster GVWR is almost 1700 pounds less than the Sprinter (9350 vs 11020).
The Promaster has 100 more horsepower, and about the same torque. That would seem to indicate a very low rpm engine, like the diesels that rarely would go over about 3500rpm. It will have some low end grunt, but likely would be pretty slow up a mountain.
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:50 PM   #6
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thanks.....

i should have mentioned... we'd be getting the 24' 3500 Sprinter.... so not a light vehicle! and we'd have beds / shower / gear in the back.



I know the 9 speed transmission would help.... but .... a bit worried.
I have a 2014 Sprinter RV with the OM651 I4/7-speed drivetrain. It's specs are:

163 PS (120 kW; 161 hp)@3800, 360 N⋅m (266 lbf⋅ft)@1400–2400

So, the new gas engine has more horsepower, insignificantly less torque, and two extra gears.

My rig drives like a dream. I am sure the new engines will even better. I wouldn't worry about it.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:05 PM   #7
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I have a 2014 Sprinter RV with the OM651 I4/7-speed drivetrain. It's specs are:

163 PS (120 kW; 161 hp)@3800, 360 N⋅m (266 lbf⋅ft)@14002400

So, the new gas engine has more horsepower, insignificantly less torque, and two extra gears.

My rig drives like a dream. I am sure the new engines will even better. I wouldn't worry about it.
great news - thanks!

FWIIW - how long is your Sprinter? and do you have bed(s) shower etc?

thanks.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:26 PM   #8
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great news - thanks!

FWIIW - how long is your Sprinter? and do you have bed(s) shower etc?
Yes, it is a fully-equipped B-van, including four Group 31 batteries, an Onan genset, a large inverter, and a second engine alternator. It is 22 8. Weighs in at around 9500 lbs.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:47 PM   #9
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.

At the Sprinter launch a few weeks ago,
they have emphasized the gas engine is an entry-level power plant.
ie their focus is still the diesel engine.
Whether they say that to protect their current market is yet to be seen. From all comments I have read in various forums, many people would buy a Sprinter if the gas engine is available. I am sure Mercedes Benz's marketing department is fully aware of this business opportunity.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:52 PM   #10
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I think the video said it is the same engine as in the Metris but detuned to regular gas so it loses some power.

Anybody ever drive a Metris with one, if they are available?

Looks like the curb weight on a Metris is about 1/2 that of a fully loaded Sprinter.
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Old 04-16-2018, 11:58 PM   #11
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Our rig is on the Ford Transit 350HD chassis with dual rear wheels. It has the 3.7 L normally-aspirated 6 cyl engine. Dry weight 8,100 lbs so probably 9,100 fully loaded. GVWR 10,360. HP rated at 270@6500, torque rated at 250@4000. We drive the Sierras, but keep the speed about 60-65 mph. Seems fine. Doesn't curl your hair, but isn't a dog by any means. Climbs the hills fine and gets 16 mpg pretty consistently.

I know this isn't a Sprinter, but thought you might be able to use the comparison.
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:39 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by booster View Post
I think the video said it is the same engine as in the Metris but detuned to regular gas so it loses some power.

Anybody ever drive a Metris with one, if they are available?

Looks like the curb weight on a Metris is about 1/2 that of a fully loaded Sprinter.
Yeah that comment made me a bit nervous.
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Old 04-17-2018, 12:40 AM   #13
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Our rig is on the Ford Transit 350HD chassis with dual rear wheels. It has the 3.7 L normally-aspirated 6 cyl engine. Dry weight 8,100 lbs so probably 9,100 fully loaded. GVWR 10,360. HP rated at 270@6500, torque rated at 250@4000. We drive the Sierras, but keep the speed about 60-65 mph. Seems fine. Doesn't curl your hair, but isn't a dog by any means. Climbs the hills fine and gets 16 mpg pretty consistently.

I know this isn't a Sprinter, but thought you might be able to use the comparison.
As this plainly shows, engines are designed differently. The MB is a low rpm, high torque engine that generates low hp numbers from the rpm limiting. Phoebe's Ford is a normally aspirated gas engine that has less torque than the MB, but way more hp. They get the hp by increasing the rpm of the operating range of the engine. 6500 rpm is really quite high, I would have expected more like 5500-5800rpm. To get all that 270hp, the engine will be screaming at 6500rpm. At the torque peak of 4000 rpm, you would be getting 190hp, which is similar to the MB engine max hp and probably more likely a range that would be comfortable enough to run the engine for a long climb.

Gas engines have traditionally been designed more like the Ford because in passenger vehicles you almost never need continuous full hp output, as it the power will only be used for short shots of acceleration or passing. The MB looks to be designed to be a truck engine that would not need the extra acceleration but probably would need more continuous full output to get the truck moving, as in a city truck driving stop and go.

Our Chevy 6.0 normally aspirated gas engine is more like the Ford than the MB, but doesn't go as high in rpm to get hp. We have 300hp, 360tq, and when on long climbs are usually running in an rpm and throttle range that has us generating 200-250hp.

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Old 04-17-2018, 01:30 AM   #14
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Originally Posted by booster View Post
I think the video said it is the same engine as in the Metris but detuned to regular gas so it loses some power.

Anybody ever drive a Metris with one, if they are available?

Looks like the curb weight on a Metris is about 1/2 that of a fully loaded Sprinter.
oh I forgot to mention - the 2019 gas Sprinter is also turbocharged, i seem to recall... could it be the same engine as the Metris, with an added turbo?

and maybe the Metris does not have the turbo?





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Old 04-17-2018, 01:37 AM   #15
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oh I forgot to mention - the 2019 gas Sprinter is also turbocharged, i seem to recall... could it be the same engine as the Metris, with an added turbo?

and maybe the Metris does not have the turbo?





john
Metris has the turbo and a bit over 200hp, same torque, so likely a bit bigger turbo and more rpm. That is what is nice about turbos, you can tune the rpm and power much more than with normally aspirated.
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Old 04-17-2018, 08:53 AM   #16
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thanks.....

i should have mentioned... we'd be getting the 24' 3500 Sprinter.... so not a light vehicle! and we'd have beds / shower / gear in the back.



I know the 9 speed transmission would help.... but .... a bit worried.

thanks.
Not exactly sprightly with those figures. That is why we here will be getting a Diesel only Sprinter
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Old 04-17-2018, 03:44 PM   #17
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Not exactly sprightly with those figures. That is why we here will be getting a Diesel only Sprinter
Well, as a current Diesel Sprinter owner, my advice to anyone researching their first purchase is to make very sure that they fully-understand and properly weight the realities of owning a modern diesel. I really, really love our Sprinter and would be strongly disposed to get another one if I were to be in the market. But the nightmare stories of serial emissions failures, "10 starts remaining", limp modes, scarcity of sprinter-equipped dealers, and long wait times for appointments are very real. They don't happen every trip, but they are common enough (and the consequences are often severe enough) so as to be a Sword of Damocles hanging over every long trip. Not the feeling you want with a B-van.

I used to believe that these were just growing pains with new emissions tech, and that the industry would soon sort it out. I no longer believe this. It is not that it couldn't be done. But, the lay of the land wrt the global geo-politics and economics of ICE in general and diesel in particular now makes me believe that diesel powertrains are now an orphan technology that will never attract the funding necessary to bring them up to modern standards of reliability. I hope I am wrong, but I doubt it. Nor do I believe that this is a Mercedes-specific issue. All the oems are facing the same technical challenges and are selling into the same market. Buying a Transit will not save you.

I would love my next rig to be Sprinter-based, but I would most certainly go out of my way to avoid buying another diesel if there is any reasonably alternative.

The good news is that modern small gas engines are extremely impressive. Combining sophisticated turbo-charging, direct-injection, many-speed transmissions, and modern control systems can produce real marvels. As I said, the numbers of my current diesel engine are very close to those reported for the new MB petrol unit, and it is more than "sprightly" enough for me. Unless RV drag-raceing becomes a thing, I just can't see why anyone would reasonably want better.
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Old 04-17-2018, 04:10 PM   #18
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What Avanti says kind of sums it all up. I have been saying for a long time that the gas engines will catch up to the diesels in economy (either by getting better or diesels getting worse), and still believe that.

Gas engines normally are designed as I described in an earlier post, with a bunch of short term usable extra power available for acceleration. Diesels don't do that, for the most part, so are made to have continuous max output for long periods without damage or overheating.

The MB engine looks like it is designed like a diesel would be, and very similar to the diesel 4 cylinder. Low rpm, high torque, lots of gears to stay within narrow rpm range. How it will drive in comparison to the similar spec diesel will be VERY interesting to hear. I would expect that the engine should be able to handle long periods of full throttle, full turbo boost, without damage or overheating. Not a really easy task in a gas engine, but should be possible if done right. I would expect the internals of the gas engine will be about as robust as the diesel, as turbo engines running at low rpm and for long periods can be really hard on moving parts, just like diesels are. Throw in the possibility of detonation from a batch of bad gas or a mixture issue and destruction could come quickly if not allowed for.

If it does drive like the diesel, there will likely be a bunch of very happy diesel folks that are scared of the new emission engines. Fans of gas engines may be disappointed because they won't have the stoplight leaving extra acceleration that they are used to with gas engines, and will call it sluggish and underpowered.
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Old 04-17-2018, 05:54 PM   #19
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The real question is what Sprinter vehicle combinations Daimler vans will offer for USA market? The gas engine, 9-speed combination may only be offered on limited models. Just like now you can only get the V-6 diesel in the 4x4 models. Time will tell later this year when the 2019 options are detailed.


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Old 04-17-2018, 07:52 PM   #20
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Well, as a current Diesel Sprinter owner, my advice to anyone researching their first purchase is to make very sure that they fully-understand and properly weight the realities of owning a modern diesel. I really, really love our Sprinter and would be strongly disposed to get another one if I were to be in the market. But the nightmare stories of serial emissions failures, "10 starts remaining", limp modes, scarcity of sprinter-equipped dealers, and long wait times for appointments are very real.
Your experiences are non existent in Australia, where Petrol engined Pickups are now virtually ceasing too exist. Vast differences in what you experience with Diesels in the US and outside it
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