A little deflated after the Aktiv test drive...

[gerrym51]

I live in Mass and ordered my zion from Crowley rv. I purposely did not order slide out steps for front doors. Only slider door has it.

i did this in 2015 when zions new.

where in Mass do you live.

[indoorsy]

Originally Posted by mumkin

I don't think she is enough of a fan for lithiums to pay the extra $20K (for something she doesn't need). LOL

hi Mumkin, you're right... I am sufficiently indoctrinated to be quite scared off from the learning curve of lithium batteries. I may not fully understand it yet, but from what I am gathering, batteries don't like the cold. They also don't like hot. In my climate, I have to worry more about cold. It seems there are things you can do to babysit the batteries during the winter but should you be a bad babysitter buying new lithiums is a gigantic mistake whereas buying new AGMs is a mistake but you don't have to eat into retirement savings to fix it.

I still haven't learned if protecting AGMs from winter cold is easier than protecting lithiums. I've been looking at used MH's and researching and learning that people are buying campers they thought were in good shape only to find out the AGM batteries are toast. I suppose is you buy at a decent price, you can accommodate that sort of thing and maybe you should expect it??

[indoorsy]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

I live in Mass and ordered my zion from Crowley rv. I purposely did not order slide out steps for front doors. Only slider door has it.

i did this in 2015 when zions new.

where in Mass do you live.

Hi Gerrym51 - I am north of Boston, on the North Shore, up by Gloucester, you? How is the Zion working out? Did you get the lithium batteries and volt start? Do you keep your RV in a heated space or outside? I am trying to get a handle on how to take care of such an expensive toy during these winters that can be so brutally cruel.

[indoorsy]

Originally Posted by jrobe

I don't think I would spend $6k or more for an air suspension system to try to improve the ride quality and handling. You can upgrade the lousy stock suspensions of these vans for quite a bit cheaper than that. In fact, suspension upgrades are almost mandatory with these commercial vans.

For a few hundred dollars and about an hour of time, you can change out the rear shocks for custom tuned Fox shocks and add some Sumo Springs. I couldn't believe how cheap the stock Sprinter rear shocks were when I changed mine out. If that doesn't do the job, it doesn't cost a lot more for things like rear leaf spring assists, better front struts and maybe even an upgraded sway bar.

You definitely don't need the hassle of dually's to make most of these vans ride nice.

hi jrobe, My thinking is to either get brand spanking new or to get used at a very good price going into knowing I will have to make modifications and will have to pay someone else to make those mods (hence the need to get a good price). I test drove the Airstream Interstate with Air Ride today. I sat in the back for 6 miles of the test drive which included both country roads and highway - it was exceedingly comfortable. I can see after the test drive why this would be a popular option but I really don't have a basis for comparison and I also know that the need for people back there would be limited. If I were to buy used, it would not be something I specifically went after. If I bought new, I'd likely want it to protect my resale value (if it were an airstream - as being on the air forums, it is a very popular option). Buying new and spending more would be with the mind that I would be getting out after the warranty was up and by that time I have some RV legs under me and maybe a bit more wherewithal to purchase a used RV. If I buy used, I think the criteria is totally different - still need the seat belts, but would upgrade the batteries and solar, would do the things I needed to do (again, would have to pay someone to do this so would not be in that realm of close to new pricing).

[indoorsy]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

In any decision making it is easy to bounce from one attribute to another in their level of importance, but, latching too early could lead to a wrong decision. I want make a point regarding handling, we have 144” tall Sprinter and never experience difficulties on highway driving. If I had to select B-Class length again I would stay within 20’ or less, easy parking, parks in a normal garage (tall ceiling) and in regards to Sprinter great handling.

OMG, I have been bouncing from one attribute to another... I feel like I'm in a pinball machine. I think I've found just then things and then learn from the generous contributors on here why all that glitters is not gold.

I am narrowing in on what is important to me. The seatbelts (more than two). The drivability on the highway (leaning toward longer wheelbase diesel, was rattled by promaster test drive). Comfy sleeping for at least two (this seems most achievable through rear sofa bed and that is a floor plan I am drawn to). Lots of windows, lighter/brighter interior (seems less claustrophobic to me but if I bought something used and cheap enough, I can change this and would actually enjoy putting my own stamp on it).

I know there are issues with the sprinter diesel's but it is the way I'm leaning. i test drove one today and it felt very comfortable to me. I've read about all the trials, but I've read the trials of the non-diesel's as well. I'm coming to understand that there isn't a choice that will be problem free so tending to opt to what I think will feel more comfortable on the road, going into it (thanks to all of you) knowing the dually's are a PITA, I might face "limp home", etc. -- The batteries are the thing that confounds me the most. Seems even if you're an electrical engineer, you're massaging these things to do what you'd think they'd just do.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by indoorsy

Hi Gerrym51 - I am north of Boston, on the North Shore, up by Gloucester, you? How is the Zion working out? Did you get the lithium batteries and volt start? Do you keep your RV in a heated space or outside? I am trying to get a handle on how to take care of such an expensive toy during these winters that can be so brutally cruel.

When i bought in early 2015 Ecotreks did not exist. However Based on what i have learned about them and that the standard Zion uses a thin plate pure lead battery that charges almost as well as lithium and discharges far more efficiently than standard agm I'm happy with what i have.

I also store it outside at a storage facility 10 minutes from me. The 200 amps of solar panels so far has kept it charged thru the 3 winter seasons i've done this.
this is its batterry and it was discussed on this site 3 years ago. it is Northstar sms agm 400 the 400minutes is discharge time -https://www.northstarbattery.com/product/sms-agm-400?p=51228 https://www.northstarbattery.com/pro...gm-400?p=51228


can't get link to work

this battery is used by telecom companies in their out of the way cell towers.

the good thing is so far winter has not bothered it a bit-research thin plate pure lead batteries. with everything shut down and winterized weather does not bother it any more than cars out in car dealers lots.

However at least once a week i go and drive it for 1/2 hour or idle if snowbound. when idling i rev for 4 3 minute periods to get more alternator juice to starting battery that will run down after awhile. the house battery and chassis battery are not connected in any way so solar panels only top off house battery

[indoorsy]

Originally Posted by Wingeezer

Indoorsy,

You might want to check out this rather interesting analysis of people seeking to buy a Class B. It's a bit long, but comes to some conclusions that I tend to agree with!

Some food for thought!

In terms of quality, this analysis holds the opinion that Pleasure Way exceeds that of Airstream.


I have owned a top of the line Airstream "Classic" trailer for the last ten years. When I bought it, I thought I was buying the epitome of RV quality. But not so sure now, although it may have been at one time.

Airstream is now owned by Thor Industries one of the largest companies in the RV field.

If you spend any time on "Airforum" you will find a lot of concerns expressed about quality of new Airstream products - even to the point of suggesting class action lawsuits should be launched over some problems on new trailers - although that has not happened to me knowledge!

I'm not saying ours had been a disaster, and no doubt it is better made than
most RV's. But it hasn't been as great as I anticipated! Maybe my expectations were too high for the $$$ that they cost! Perhaps 3 or 4 times that of an equivalent sized trailer of another make

I suppose the lesson I learned is that no doubt, to some degree, quality generally goes up with money expended, but it seems far from a linear relationship !

At the moment I am sort of focussed on Pleasure Way and Roadtrek, class B's and this is what the above youtube analysis seems to have predicted for me!

Brian

Brian, I cannot thank you ENOUGH for the video link... he was the BEST! I love this way of breaking it down and I completely agree (although he is theoretical and giving both Roadtrek the benefit of the doubt for being innovative (whereas in reality from reading these boards they are beta testing on their own customers and really should innovate in-house before releasing to the market) and also giving Airstream the benefit of the doubt for their reputation which clearly seems to have taken a hit over the past 10 plus of minus years.

After the watching the video I identified myself a "performance" buyer. I want the seat belts, I want the comfy sleeping, I want the solid feeling on the highway, I want it to feel as light and open as it can in a B, I'm not rolling in dough so I'll pay for perceived benefits to me and my particular needs but don't want to shell out $$ unnecessarily. Their "performance" pick was Roadtrek but I hear so much on hear about the quality -- for the Roadtrek floor plans that meet my needs, I am in a very high price category. That would not be an easy way to go.

One thing I haven't mentioned before is that I work as an interior designer specializing in kitchens and baths. I am sooooo into aesthetics. Extremely fussy about details that most people wouldn't notice. My thought is to get something cheap and make it my own, OR buy new or newer and pay more than I'd like to but love it, and for me loving it is as much about aesthetics and how it "feels" as it is about the other factors - durability, drivability, resale value, comfort, etc. -- If I am paying up for new or newer would be difficult for me to buy something I didn't like the aesthetics of and that is such a subjective thing. Some of the manufacturers seem to equate luxury with a super high gloss glitziness. That is not for me. I appreciate a lower key vibe. I can't stand two tone leather seats - with a big contrasting band up the middle - to me, less is more. I don't care for dark cabinetry and particularly don't like partial overlay cabinetry where there is a large panel with one small opening. As someone who plans cabinetry for a living it kills me. I liked the interior design of the hymer. It had the lighter cabinetry - sort of what I'd call a fumed oak for the cabinets and a reclaimed wood (vinyl) on the floor. Leather was supple and monotone. Interior on point if you ask me. Same for Airstream.

I need to balance what is right mechanically with what feels good to me to drive and what feels good to me to live in. I'm getting tons of help on the mechanical end. Doing the test drives to determine the driving aspects of. The aesthetics seem to be fighting the mechanics (I like Airstream and Hymer a lot - don't particularly care for some of the others, but these choices don't fair well on this forum... The airstream was a better drive to me, the Hymer an affordable version and something I'd be happy with but likely not as comfortable as seating wasn't as good (airstream seats extremely comfortable)).

I really hate to admit how much the aesthetics matter to me. I am not trying to be precious but it's a lot of money to buy new and if new, I want it to fit with my aesthetic as well as be reliable. I hope that's not impossible to find. As said, I'm open to used and doing a make over (would be so fun), but I seem a bit paralyzed at evaluating the older used models in terms of the mechanical aspect.

[MsNomer]

Indoorsky, don't fight your attention to aesthetics. Embrace it. I'm no professional like you, but I made sacrifices to attain the look I wanted and I'm very pleased I did. For example, I would never allow cabinetry to encroach into a window area--and my windows are the largest that would fit. I have no cabinetry of any kind above the window sill line.

I think, however, that the only way you are going to have what you want is to do it yourself.

[mumkin]

Indoorsy... with your obvious and understandable confusion about what you really want and need, I would recommend buying used. Try to find something that you "think" meets most of your list (never will get all without a special order). Most of us find that once we spend a year or so using our first rig... we were wrong. LOL I was talking to my MN Hymer dealer (also sells other brands) yesterday and we got into the fact that such a large proportion of their new buyers are back trading it in within a few months... it was too large... or too small... or the kitchen doesn't work for the wife... or they didn't want to tow... or they prefer to tow a car rather than a trailer... or or or...

Your confusion is common for first time buyers. It is why you see so many one year old rigs with very low mileage on the market.

[booster]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Indoorsy... with your obvious and understandable confusion about what you really want and need, I would recommend buying used. Try to find something that you "think" meets most of your list (never will get all without a special order). Most of us find that once we spend a year or so using our first rig... we were wrong. LOL I was talking to my MN Hymer dealer (also sells other brands) yesterday and we got into the fact that such a large proportion of their new buyers are back trading it in within a few months... it was too large... or too small... or the kitchen doesn't work for the wife... or they didn't want to tow... or they prefer to tow a car rather than a trailer... or or or...

Your confusion is common for first time buyers. It is why you see so many one year old rigs with very low mileage on the market.

Very well stated, I agree completely

[indoorsy]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Indoorsy... with your obvious and understandable confusion about what you really want and need, I would recommend buying used. Try to find something that you "think" meets most of your list (never will get all without a special order). Most of us find that once we spend a year or so using our first rig... we were wrong. LOL I was talking to my MN Hymer dealer (also sells other brands) yesterday and we got into the fact that such a large proportion of their new buyers are back trading it in within a few months... it was too large... or too small... or the kitchen doesn't work for the wife... or they didn't want to tow... or they prefer to tow a car rather than a trailer... or or or...

Your confusion is common for first time buyers. It is why you see so many one year old rigs with very low mileage on the market.

hi Mumkin,
I can only imagine the mistake I'd have made had I not come to this forum! I am so much further from a decision now having learned so much than I when I first came on here. I am 99% sure buying used is the right way for me to go (and hopefully at an attractive price so I can make mods and not feel like I'm creeping up money wise to where I'd be if I bought new).

My biggest current dilemma is that I loved the way the MB sprinter diesel drove. Much preferred it to the Promaster on a shorter wheelbase. I felt so much more secure on the highway. So now how do I rectify that against what seems like overwhelming evidence that diesel engines are trouble?

[indoorsy]

Originally Posted by MsNomer

Indoorsky, don't fight your attention to aesthetics. Embrace it. I'm no professional like you, but I made sacrifices to attain the look I wanted and I'm very pleased I did. For example, I would never allow cabinetry to encroach into a window area--and my windows are the largest that would fit. I have no cabinetry of any kind above the window sill line.

I think, however, that the only way you are going to have what you want is to do it yourself.

Thank you for the support! I follow a bunch of people on instagram who have bought run down old rigs and fixed them up. It's been a bit of a fantasy for while. But I do get nervous about the mechanical aspects. So much more nervous since coming onto this forum! I've been researching mechanics in my area - trying to find people who can work on RVs, engines, generators, etc. -- If I'm going the route of USED I think it prudent to know who and where my resources are.

[tgregg]

Originally Posted by indoorsy

My biggest current dilemma is that I loved the way the MB sprinter diesel drove. Much preferred it to the Promaster on a shorter wheelbase. I felt so much more secure on the highway. So now how do I rectify that against what seems like overwhelming evidence that diesel engines are trouble?

Test drive the Promaster again, but start out on quiet city streets until you're comfortable with seat position, mirrors, gas pedal etc. before trying the highway.

Maybe it will feel more comfortable the second time.

[jrobe]

Originally Posted by indoorsy

So now how do I rectify that against what seems like overwhelming evidence that diesel engines are trouble?

Seriously. You read a few Class B forum posts and come to the conclusion that the "overwhelming evidence shows that diesel engines are trouble" despite the obvious fact that there are millions of diesel engines on our highways with millions of satisfied owners. Somehow, this overwhelming evidence has escaped a lot of drivers, a lot of commercial companies and a lot of Class B builders.

[indoorsy]

My apologies jrobe for the overgeneralization. Maybe it's just me that's overwhelmed and not the evidence.

[AlexJ]

My wife and I both love how our Safari Condo Promaster 159 Ext drives. The seats, the mirrors, the turning radius, the visibility, the stability of the wider track/shorter height versus the Sprinter.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by AlexJ

My wife and I both love how our Safari Condo Promaster 159 Ext drives. The seats, the mirrors, the turning radius, the visibility, the stability of the wider track/shorter height versus the Sprinter.

i've wanted a Safari Condo for a long time-however the issues getting it into the US is an issue itself.

[AlexJ]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

i've wanted a Safari Condo for a long time-however the issues getting it into the US is an issue itself.

We had a great buying experience. Just required delivering the empty van to Quebec City (a part of a beautiful vacation to Vermont and Quebec)... and a year wait from the time of order placement. The empty van was delivered to Burlington so only a four hour drive to their factory. Well worth it to get what we wanted.

[<<B-Guy>>]

Originally Posted by indoorsy

My apologies jrobe for the overgeneralization. Maybe it's just me that's overwhelmed and not the evidence.

Can't speak to Mercedes, but our GMC Duramax diesel that we have owned now for ten years has been excellent - pulls great, gets decent mileage for a large V8, and has been trouble.

Also zero diesel smell and cold weather start problems, a coupe of things I had been worried about when we bought it!

It is a bit noisier - but then after working for Canadian National Railway for 34 yerars I find that diesel rattle sort of nostalgic! r

With Mercedes reputation in general, it's hard to imagine it would be a disaster - although no doubt it is true that pollution controls are now more complex - ours was a year before introduction of DEF I think.

At this stage I'd probably prefer gas - but that is mainly due to a concern I have about the size of the MB dealer network in the event of trouble on the road.

Still plan to look at the RT Adventurous and PW Plateau before deciding!

Brian.

[35603]

Originally Posted by AlexJ

We had a great buying experience. Just required delivering the empty van to Quebec City (a part of a beautiful vacation to Vermont and Quebec)... and a year wait from the time of order placement. The empty van was delivered to Burlington so only a four hour drive to their factory. Well worth it to get what we wanted.

Unfortunately the wait is now 18 months.