Camping on the street

[booster]

Don't know any details yet. Not judging one way or the other.

But-bad things can happen if you look like you don't belong someplace, and there is a problem, or misunderstanding.

BCA Investigating Vadnais Heights Officer-Involved Shooting « WCCO | CBS Minnesota

[mlts22]

I wouldn't let that interfere with how I camp, in any way, shape or form. Who knows what might have caused that.

[JohnnyFry]

I agree, but it does point out that wherever you stop to spend the night situational awareness is critical. If you stop on a street somewhere you should be aware of the neighborhood, pull the shades, keep lights low and go to bed quietly without loud radio or TV. Even then, if you get a knock on the door, be cautious. If it is the police be polite, move cautiously and let them know what you are going to do.

[mojoman]

I had some magnetic signs made that say "Canine Security Services", even has a phone number; for those who remember: 867-5309.

[ClassB4Me]

I would love to do a 1 year nomadic van adventure but police are on heightened alert in the US and are prone to shoot 1st and ask questions later. They assume the worst and will cite 'sensing an imminent threat'.

Some cities offer places where people who live in their vehicles can park in a safe designated space overnight but cannot camp there 24-7.

Everyone tends to be more suspicious and assumes the worst. A couple who sold their home and live full time in their van maintain a YouTube channel - Exploring Alternatives

They speak to not staying in a place too long at night and using public spaces during the day. They both work remotely, are not grubby, and are very intelligent. I would not see them as a problem if they parked outside my home.

[mojoman]

Yes! I live in Ca and all police routinely shoot people for sport.
Sounds insane? Yes, That's what the Snowflakes here in CA are spouting. I have friends and family in law enforcement and thats so far from the truth it makes me sick.

[booster]

Originally Posted by JohnnyFry

I agree, but it does point out that wherever you stop to spend the night situational awareness is critical. If you stop on a street somewhere you should be aware of the neighborhood, pull the shades, keep lights low and go to bed quietly without loud radio or TV. Even then, if you get a knock on the door, be cautious. If it is the police be polite, move cautiously and let them know what you are going to do.

I think what you say is why this really struck me as scary. As more is coming out on it, I might say even more scary. It was in a light business area, it appears, decent neighborhood, and the guy and apparently his girlfriend, were living in the van and had been around there for at least several days, moving a bit occasionally. By most accounts there were no complaints from the neighborhood, and it was the police that flagged it as a "suspicious vehicle" and decided to investigate it. The girlfriend appears to have been in a car parked behind the van when the police showed up, and the guy was inside the van. Police went into the van, and from there something happened to make the guy shot and dead.

So far, it looks like they did what most say is the best to do. Low profile, quiet, no mess, stay inside, which is different from most "hassle" stories we hear about, which don't leave anyone dead.

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

I would love to do a 1 year nomadic van adventure but police are on heightened alert in the US and are prone to shoot 1st and ask questions later. They assume the worst and will cite 'sensing an imminent threat'.

I have to take issue with this. Merely because use-of-force incidents are reported on by the press regularly doesn't mean that every cop treats every citizen they contact that way every time. This is a gross mischaracterization of what's happening in the US today. First, there is no "the police" as a hierarchical, nation-wide organization to be on "heightened alert." There is no "central command" for police departments. Nationally each PD and SO answer only to their own local command structure and policies and procedures. It's about as de-centralized of a "system" as you can imagine.

There have been more instances of cops being ambushed, injured and killed by the public in the past couple of years as folks who have a positive duty to peacefully submit to arrest by a peace officer fail to perform that duty. More citizens have been willing to randomly and violently attack other citizens AND cops. Cops are more wary, which contributes to their self-preservation, but they're not on "heightened alert" as though they were waiting for an invasion. On the other hand, cops have the absolute right to use "that amount of force necessary to overcome the resistance offered" during an arrest. That more citizens have more frequently failed to submit to arrest as is required of them by law has lead to more visible and newsworthy use-of-force incidents being reported.

The 250,000 independent-thinking cops in this country make literally millions of uneventful citizen contacts daily with very few of them turning violent unless the citizen they contact is or becomes violent and resists. To be afraid of touring the country because of those few incidents is akin to being so afraid of lightning or tornadoes that you never leave your own house.

Generally speaking, if you're non-threatening and compliant when you deal with cops on the street and you treat them with the same basic respect you require for yourself, you'll be treated with that same kind of respect you offer them. Cops, with good reason, have a healthy dose of wariness and skepticism for self-preservation, but to label them 'trigger-happy' just isn't accurate or reasonable.

[ClassB4Me]

I would love to do a 1 year nomadic van adventure but police are on heightened alert in the US and are prone to shoot 1st and ask questions later. They assume the worst and will cite 'sensing an imminent threat'.

There is nothing to take issue with. Your choice to Assume is part of the problem. I would ask instead of 'taking issue' with a sentence, maybe have a dialog. Life is nuanced but if people choose to let assumptions drive intercourse we are in trouble as a society.

I have family as well who serves and protects. Any time a police officer walks up to a car they have to assume the worst. If the person in a car makes a sudden move that officer may not make it home that night. These are the times we live in.

I am old enough to remember a time that many of us never would think a mother with children in the car would be a threat to an officer. However, the culture has changed and we can cite examples of women recently evading officer, threatening their lives.

As a result, driver profiles that were once not perceived as a threat cannot be treated as such anymore.

- More people carry guns / weapons (legally / illegally)
- People are told violence occurs more frequently
- Almost every discussion is politicized
- And yes some people are anti police officer and make assumptions (until they need one)

[ClassB4Me]

I live in CA as well and in other parts of the US and have never had a bad interaction with a police offer. NEVER. Even when I thought the situation was not correct, the interaction was professional.

My fear is demonization of the police force in total is simplistic and puts everyone at risk. I don't know what is driving this but I have a suspicion.

Police officers have better technology on board (license place scanners, more comprehensive database, etc.) and can obtain a better profile of the people they believe they pull over.

Therefore, if you have a long record of problems, outstanding warrants, etc. the officer will know before he steps out of the car.

His posture towards you will change (because he has more detailed info). This is a world that I have zero experience with and these stories about systemic police violence disturb me.

[mojoman]

Up north here in Ca we are getting allot of "undocumented pharmacists" from our neighboring country with large amounts of heroin. Its so nice being a sanctuary state. They never seem to make their court date once they make bail.

[ClassB4Me]

I live in the East Bay and go into SF fairly often. Other than bad traffic and homelessness, life is pretty good.

Yes, the area is more tolerant and there are times where there is blowback for 'looking the other way' for the things you describe.

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

This is a world that I have zero experience with and these stories about systemic police violence disturb me.

First, let me thank you for your replies. They tell me that this is something you're deeply concerned about; but moreover confirmed my suspicions about why you're so concerned.

My point in my earlier post was that "systemic police violence" doesn't exist. There ARE individual instances where police officers are involved in violent confrontations, but they involve individual citizens and a response (right or wrong) to their actions, and are NOT a "systemic police violence" response.

We, as humans, are extraordinarily poor judges of risk. The more we hear about a specific thing being a problem for someone the more likely we are to internalize it as being OUR problem too. We have difficulty putting threats into perspective. For example, in our country right now, many many people are extraordinarily concerned about the "perceived" threats that terrorists bring to our shores because of the huge amount of press they receive. Interactions with police officers are similarly brought to the forefront by the press, and yet NONE of the ACTUAL threats that confront you and I on a daily basis are ever even discussed. The likelihood of any particular citizen being injured or a killed by a cop is almost nonexistent. The likelihood that ANY particular citizen in the U.S. of being injured or killed by a terrorist is even lower. Yet the news is pervasive and so is the fear.

According to the CDC, by a factor of 10 you're most likely to die in the US from cardiac disease or cancer (over 1.1 million people in 2014.) Chronic respiratory disease (147,000) is third, and accidents (all causes) fourth (at 136,000.) Those accidents involve bathtub and home stairs falls which account for many of those deaths. In 2015, nearly 40,000 people were killed in traffic accidents on US roads. In 2015, according to the Washington Post, 986 citizens were killed in police-related incidents. NOAA says that, on average, about 250 people annually are struck by lightning, so as an individual your odds of being killed by a cop are slightly higher than being struck by lightning... but not much. Yet the risk of driving a car and being injured or killed is significant. And we still let our 16 year olds behind the wheel. We continue to drop dead of cardiac disease, cancers, and chronic respiratory diseases at a rate by multiples of dozens higher than ALL deaths from ALL types of accidents. But that's seldom on the news.

We LOVE a good police chase and we want ALL the gory details when there's an officer-involved shooting or in-custody death. Yet, again compared to the number of contacts cops make nation-wide every day, they're pretty unusual circumstances... but because we hear about them regularly in the 24 news-hour cycle we assimilate them as a real threat to US. And they're just not... certainly not of a magnitude to alter the course of our lives out of concern for that.

It's natural to fear what you don't know, and I can appreciate that; but it's always wise to investigate those things that concern you so you can make more informed decisions about the actual amount of risk you're assuming. In this case, provided that you're a law-abiding citizen going about lawful tasks in an unassuming way, the odds of you being involved in a violent confrontation with cops is probably less than your odds of being struck by lightning.

And now back to our regularly-scheduled thread...

[booster]

It is the luck of the draw sometimes, I think, and with the luck being worse as you get into higher crime areas. But bad luck can happen anywhere.

When two 60+ white, nice neighborhood living, spotless record, folks can come within an eyelash of being arrested, because of poor police behavior, it shows we all are vulnerable to some extent, even if it is a rare case.

Yes, it was me and DW on our way home from working second shift in a low crime area. Neither of us ever had any bad issues with police until that night, or after, but it was a frightening to be sure. The good was that after I wrote a letter to the sheriff, and having him call us to talk about it, the overzealous night time policing stopped happening from that day on. I had always believed that if you were not belligerent or aggressive, things would always be OK with the police, and they always have been, except that one time......

But again, back to the main issue of what can, or did, happen in the case of the guy that got shot in his van. I think they said no body cameras, so I am sure it will get to be another of the very contradictory statements type thing.

It is sobering, though, to think that you can die from being parked on the street in your van, regardless of the odds.

[BBQ]

.

Many bad things did happen,
and they happened more often than we like to see.

But I agree that it is not systematic.


What's happening in certain [edited] "3rd world country" is systematic.
There is a difference.

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by booster

It is sobering, though, to think that you can die from being parked on the street in your van, regardless of the odds.

No one died from being parked on the street in their van. The guy was contacted because he was living in the motorhome on the street, but that certainly wasn't the reason for the ensuing struggle.

We don't yet know anything about whatever that may have been about.

[booster]

Originally Posted by hepcat

No one died from being parked on the street in their van. The guy was contacted because he was living in the motorhome on the street, but that certainly wasn't the reason for the ensuing struggle.

We don't yet know anything about whatever that may have been about.

Totally agree, and we don't, and maybe won't for certain, know what happened. What we do know for certain is that if the van had not been camping on the street, this event would not have happened. It likely didn't cause the death, but the death would not have happened without the street camping, because there would not have been any police contact. That has been my point from the very beginning.

[hepcat]

Originally Posted by booster

...but the death would not have happened without the street camping, because there would not have been any police contact. That has been my point from the very beginning.

Unfortunately, without facts we're purely speculating. If we're speculating, we could just as easily speculate that the person who was shot would have attracted an equal law enforcement response had he been in a house or apartment somewhere, or been driving another vehicle somewhere else. There's just no way to know.

Hopefully when more facts are released, we'll know something more definitive about the whole incident.

[ClassB4Me]

Originally Posted by booster

It is the luck of the draw sometimes, I think, and with the luck being worse as you get into higher crime areas. But bad luck can happen anywhere.

When two 60+ white, nice neighborhood living, spotless record, folks can come within an eyelash of being arrested, because of poor police behavior, it shows we all are vulnerable to some extent, even if it is a rare case.

Yes, it was me and DW on our way home from working second shift in a low crime area. Neither of us ever had any bad issues with police until that night, or after, but it was a frightening to be sure. The good was that after I wrote a letter to the sheriff, and having him call us to talk about it, the overzealous night time policing stopped happening from that day on. I had always believed that if you were not belligerent or aggressive, things would always be OK with the police, and they always have been, except that one time......

But again, back to the main issue of what can, or did, happen in the case of the guy that got shot in his van. I think they said no body cameras, so I am sure it will get to be another of the very contradictory statements type thing.

It is sobering, though, to think that you can die from being parked on the street in your van, regardless of the odds.

As I mentioned before I don't believe this is a systemic problem but what is the criteria for when situations like the one you encountered get elevated attention or concern?

Most people do want to cooperate but the assessment of cooperating is usually in the eyes of the person with the badge (unless there is another person recording the situation - i.e. camera.

Just curious... After your 'encounter' have you mentally altered how you respond to police interaction?

[booster]

Originally Posted by ClassB4Me

As I mentioned before I don't believe this is a systemic problem but what is the criteria for when situations like the one you encountered get elevated attention or concern?

Most people do want to cooperate but the assessment of cooperating is usually in the eyes of the person with the badge (unless there is another person recording the situation - i.e. camera.

Just curious... After your 'encounter' have you mentally altered how you respond to police interaction?

Actually, in my case, my attitude had been eroding from all the overzealous enforcement even before the adventure. It had to do with the deputies zooming up behind you with the brights on, right up to your bumper, and dropping back and doing it again and again. As soon as you would react by slowing down or moving over (as you had no idea if it was police or drunks), you were likely to get stopped for erratic driving. After the adventure, both of us didn't even want to go to work because we knew we would have to drive home, and that is not good place to be in regards to the police. We stewed for weeks before I wrote to the sheriff, even though DW said "are you sure you want to do that, it could get worse". The sheriff was great, as was his patrol captain, that we also had a nice long conversation with. The didn't deflect or push back, and I think were truly not happy. As I mentioned, it ended instantly, and has not returned in the ensuing years. The fact that it was taken care of so well and so professionally, really reinstated our positive feelings for the deputies and police in general. If they had not addressed the issue, I am sure it would have been a different story, so I truly understand why some folks have very negative feelings about police. I would say that I currently wouldn't even think about the bad if I were to get stopped, and certainly do believe the problems we had were because of a few bad apples that spoiled the barrel for a while, until corrected.