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Old 01-08-2019, 12:07 PM   #111
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Self-delusion takes lots of forms.
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Old 01-08-2019, 08:05 PM   #112
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Self-delusion takes lots of forms.
What a wonderful tidbit of knowledge this post shows. And what a contribution to the thread topic(s).
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:09 AM   #113
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I've only been a reader on this forum as i'm learning about vans and you all know more than me.I have however put thought in electric cars. When people talk about the pollution an electric car makes verses a gas.The power source is very diverse which increases flexibility my local area is 80% hydro electric.When you think about the pollution from a gallon of gas it doesn't start polluting when you put in the car it starts polluting when you take it out of the ground 15 tanker rail cars in the river 230,000 thousand gallons crude from a pipeline in the middle of an Iowa field etc. There is also no value given to the large amount of electricity used to make gas pumped and usually heated more than once takes a lot of energy to a delivered refined product. Which could go straight into an ev. It's easier to keep pollution control systems up and working on the amount of power plants out there than every single car.Electric cars have more electrical systems and not as many fluids much less likely to leave puddles like we see in all our parking lots.Just something to think about.
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Old 01-13-2019, 12:43 AM   #114
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Rding,
Hear, hear!
(and welcome to the group!).
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:05 PM   #115
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As of now, and into the near future, fossil fuels are almost always the power source for any additional demand, including any used by electric cars. If it suits you, you can believe in some abstract sense that x% of your power comes from solar, x% from hydro, etc.

Unfortunately the world isn't an abstraction and every time you charge your car somewhere a power source is ramping up to meet your demand. The source of that added power is almost always spewing carbon into the atmosphere. If you are comparing that electric car to an SUV or RV with mileage under 20 mpg, then you may come out ahead. But if you are comparing it to a 30 mpg+ vehicle you are likely coming out behind. And if you are comparing it to a 50 mpg hybrid, its not even close.

In the current marketplace, electric cars are greenwash. Their future depends on how we decide to reduce the amount of energy being used for transportation. If we try to sustain the current level of energy by substituting electricity for gas/diesel we are going to be burning coal for a very long time.
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Old 01-13-2019, 07:18 PM   #116
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As of now, and into the near future, fossil fuels are almost always the power source for any additional demand, including any used by electric cars. If it suits you, you can believe in some abstract sense that x% of your power comes from solar, x% from hydro, etc.

Unfortunately the world isn't an abstraction and every time you charge your car somewhere a power source is ramping up to meet your demand. The source of that added power is almost always spewing carbon into the atmosphere. If you are comparing that electric car to an SUV or RV with mileage under 20 mpg, then you may come out ahead. But if you are comparing it to a 30 mpg+ vehicle you are likely coming out behind. And if you are comparing it to a 50 mpg hybrid, its not even close.

In the current marketplace, electric cars are greenwash. Their future depends on how we decide to reduce the amount of energy being used for transportation. If we try to sustain the current level of energy by substituting electricity for gas/diesel we are going to be burning coal for a very long time.

‘‘There is nothing so plain boring as the constant repetition of assertions that are not true.’’
--J.L. Austin
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Old 01-13-2019, 08:20 PM   #117
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Quote:
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‘‘There is nothing so plain boring as the constant repetition of assertions that are not true.’’
--J.L. Austin
Wow! Talk about self identification.
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Old 01-13-2019, 08:23 PM   #118
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‘‘There is nothing so plain boring as the constant repetition of assertions that are not true.’’
--J.L. Austin
But, this could be the strategy “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” - Joseph Goebbels.
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Old 01-13-2019, 08:34 PM   #119
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Quote:
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‘‘There is nothing so plain boring as the constant repetition of assertions that are not true.’’
--J.L. Austin
Except repeated denials of the obvious.
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Old 01-13-2019, 08:41 PM   #120
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But, this could be the strategy “If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it.” - Joseph Goebbels.
That is most certainly the strategy of greenwashing. You claim something is clean and good for the environment often enough and people will believe it. It has clearly worked with electric cars for some people here.

And by all means, if you have a car that is leaving puddles of oil, junk it and buy a new car electric or not. But the oil burned to generate electricity is not any cleaner than a diesel. And coal is hardly cleaner either with the environmental impacts of mining and trail of coal dust left as it is transported. You can make the case that natural gas is cleaner but it has its environmental problems as well.

Its not that electric cars are terrible for the environment compared to a gas or diesel car. Its that in many cases using an electric car is the same or worse.
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