Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 07-24-2016, 02:34 PM   #201
Platinum Member
 
markopolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 7,820
Default

For the kill-a-watt I was thinking plug the van in. You'd see the watts being used by the van. Some of it would be the energy used by the charger to keep the voltage of the lithium's above resting though.
__________________

__________________
Two bikes on sliding cargo box: https://www.classbforum.com/forums/m...icture206.html & 1997 GMC Savana 6.5L Turbo Diesel Custom Camper Van Specifications: https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...vana-5864.html
markopolo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2016, 02:55 PM   #202
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,240
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by markopolo View Post
For the kill-a-watt I was thinking plug the van in. You'd see the watts being used by the van. Some of it would be the energy used by the charger to keep the voltage of the lithium's above resting though.
I think there are a lot of variables in that method including the efficiency of the charger, say it ends up with a steady state power draw of 50 watts on the Kill-A-Watt meter on the shore power connection. How much of that is actually going into the battery module to power the internal loads and how much is lost to charger inefficiency and inverter parasitic power draw (the inverter is on when the charger is on with the inverters installed these days).

I have not seen any reports from owners about what happens when the Ecotreks are on shore power and they become fully charged. There is some mechanism to prevent the inverter/charger from overcharging the battery cells when on shore power. I have wondered what the mechanism is since one option seems problematic. Doesn't seem like they could simply disconnect the charger from the cells using the relay since the inverter/charger is on the load side of the Ecotreks, you would lose the connection to the battery which I guess would work if the inverter/charger can function as a converter to power the DC loads when the battery gets disconnected. Someday I may figure this all out...
__________________

gregmchugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2016, 03:51 PM   #203
Platinum Member
 
Davydd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4,513
Default

Someone go buy and Etrek and find out.
__________________
Davydd
2015 Advanced RV Ocean One Mercedes Benz Sprinter
Previous Class Bs:
2011 Great West Van Legend Sprinter
2005 Pleasure-way Plateau TS Sprinter
Davydd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2016, 04:40 PM   #204
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,240
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davydd View Post
Someone go buy and Etrek and find out.
Why on earth would I spend money on a new van that would be no more useful to me than the 10 year old one I already have have?

I have wondered why it seems to disturb you so much that some people are interested in learning how the new technology vans work even though they aren't interested in getting one themselves?

I personally do it because it keeps the technical side of my brain active and so I am able to help other owners understand how to use their new vans effectively when they run into problems. Is that something that seems like a useless pastime for a retired engineer?
gregmchugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2016, 09:26 PM   #205
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: CA
Posts: 1,605
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmchugh View Post
I personally do it because it keeps the technical side of my brain active and so I am able to help other owners understand how to use their new vans effectively when they run into problems. Is that something that seems like a useless pastime for a retired engineer?
The answer is deceptively simple. Engineers are largely without vision. Their virtue is lies in their ability to execute the vision of others devoid of any value judgement regarding the vision itself. This is why the product of engineers becomes the vehicle for results that range from wonderful to horrific.

The fatal flaw of all engineers is their inevitable contraction of terminal NIH disease.

Roadtrek clearly has the vision, but they are behind the curve with respect to execution. Their mistake is not yanking Davydd out of retirement at gun point if necessary and putting him to work.
cruising7388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2016, 09:46 PM   #206
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,240
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruising7388 View Post
The answer is deceptively simple. Engineers are largely without vision. Their virtue is lies in their ability to execute the vision of others devoid of any value judgement regarding the vision itself. This is why the product of engineers becomes the vehicle for results that range from wonderful to horrific.

The fatal flaw of all engineers is their inevitable contraction of terminal NIH disease.

Roadtrek clearly has the vision, but they are behind the curve with respect to execution. Their mistake is not yanking Davydd out of retirement at gun point if necessary and putting him to work.
Wow, I wouldn't know where to start responding to that so I will just let it sit...
gregmchugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2016, 10:27 PM   #207
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: CA
Posts: 1,605
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmchugh View Post
Wow, I wouldn't know where to start responding to that so I will just let it sit...
Why bother? I'll be back on my medication right away.
cruising7388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2016, 11:07 PM   #208
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: CA
Posts: 1,605
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davydd View Post
Someone go buy and Etrek and find out.
Well, it's no longer necessary to plunk down the high six figure amount to address the questions being asked here. R/T now offers lion/UHgen/Voltstart as an option in every model they offer with the exception of the Simplicity which interestingly does not offer lion but does offer the UH generator. The other models offer lion Eco400 and on some, up to Eco800. This is undoubtedly a good marketing decision but if the problems have not been well resolved it potentially dramatically increases the negative PR fallout from unhappy customers.

No question that parasitic loads always have to be considered but it deserves some perspective. A coach with a 200 lion battery would makes a parasitic BMS load very significant. On the other hand, a coach with the 1600 ah Warp Core option would absorb this without even blinking, particularly since the option also includes 600 watt solar array. IMO as battery density and capacity keeps jumping, IMO parasitic loads will be of less and less concern.

In a distant way, it's reminiscent of the evolution of computer memory. There were the early days when you diligently scrubbed everything from very limited memory that wasn't absolute critical to retain but these days with zigga gigga wigga byte memory capacity, who cares? These days, the only time I delete anything is by mistake.
cruising7388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-24-2016, 11:58 PM   #209
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,240
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruising7388 View Post
Well, it's no longer necessary to plunk down the high six figure amount to address the questions being asked here. R/T now offers lion/UHgen/Voltstart as an option in every model they offer with the exception of the Simplicity which interestingly does not offer lion but does offer the UH generator. The other models offer lion Eco400 and on some, up to Eco800. This is undoubtedly a good marketing decision but if the problems have not been well resolved it potentially dramatically increases the negative PR fallout from unhappy customers.

No question that parasitic loads always have to be considered but it deserves some perspective. A coach with a 200 lion battery would makes a parasitic BMS load very significant. On the other hand, a coach with the 1600 ah Warp Core option would absorb this without even blinking, particularly since the option also includes 600 watt solar array. IMO as battery density and capacity keeps jumping, IMO parasitic loads will be of less and less concern.

In a distant way, it's reminiscent of the evolution of computer memory. There were the early days when you diligently scrubbed everything from very limited memory that wasn't absolute critical to retain but these days with zigga gigga wigga byte memory capacity, who cares? These days, the only time I delete anything is by mistake.
Sorry to put a damper on your vision but a 1600 amp hour Ecotrek system has 8*35 watts of parasitic loads in the 8 battery modules so it needs about 2000 watts of solar panels just to restore the power lost in the 8 battery modules if you keep them all online.

That's the problem with engineers on development projects, they keep forcing visionaries to deal with the realities of their flawed visions...
gregmchugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2016, 12:39 AM   #210
Platinum Member
 
markopolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: New Brunswick, Canada
Posts: 7,820
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruising7388 View Post
.............................. On the other hand, a coach with the 1600 ah Warp Core option would absorb this without even blinking, particularly since the option also includes 600 watt solar array. IMO as battery density and capacity keeps jumping, IMO parasitic loads will be of less and less concern........................
As Greg already pointed out the losses are per module.

This guy has the 1600ah "warp core" with 600W solar you describe: https://www.facebook.com/groups/road...19944704831179

Partial quote from that post:
Quote:
.......But leaving all 8 battery banks on drains the power in about 48 hours.........
__________________
Two bikes on sliding cargo box: https://www.classbforum.com/forums/m...icture206.html & 1997 GMC Savana 6.5L Turbo Diesel Custom Camper Van Specifications: https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...vana-5864.html
markopolo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2016, 01:03 AM   #211
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: CA
Posts: 1,605
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmchugh View Post
Sorry to put a damper on your vision but a 1600 amp hour Ecotrek system has 8*35 watts of parasitic loads in the 8 battery modules so it needs about 2000 watts of solar panels just to restore the power lost in the 8 battery modules if you keep them all online.

That's the problem with engineers on development projects, they keep forcing visionaries to deal with the realities of their flawed visions...
It's not my flawed vision or even a vision at all. It's a pragmatic conclusion. I think that, as a practical matter, parasitic loads are of lesser significance when the coach is attended or operated and of more significance when the coach is left unattended for significant periods. For that situation solar assist will mitigate if not offset the parasitic load and with a multiple battery system, when the coach is unattended without any power demand other than the reefer and probably some fans, parasitic loads can be reduced by shutting down some of the batteries.

No question, it's a lashup at this point but IMO some creative redesign of the BMS in the near future will reduce the parasitics to acceptable levels, most likely by implementing a master BMS to serve multiple batteries and focusing on using current sparing devices. While R/T doesn't seem to be prepared to expose their warts and blemishes to the RV community, I think it would be foolish to assume that they aren't working feverishly on resolutions.
cruising7388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-25-2016, 03:03 AM   #212
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,240
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruising7388 View Post
It's not my flawed vision or even a vision at all. It's a pragmatic conclusion. I think that, as a practical matter, parasitic loads are of lesser significance when the coach is attended or operated and of more significance when the coach is left unattended for significant periods. For that situation solar assist will mitigate if not offset the parasitic load and with a multiple battery system, when the coach is unattended without any power demand other than the reefer and probably some fans, parasitic loads can be reduced by shutting down some of the batteries.

No question, it's a lashup at this point but IMO some creative redesign of the BMS in the near future will reduce the parasitics to acceptable levels, most likely by implementing a master BMS to serve multiple batteries and focusing on using current sparing devices. While R/T doesn't seem to be prepared to expose their warts and blemishes to the RV community, I think it would be foolish to assume that they aren't working feverishly on resolutions.
I never suggested they weren't planning to come up with a redesign to resolve the current issues, I sure hope they are tasking some talented engineers to get a redesign done and also hope that they are planning to not use their customers to debug this new version. I realize visionaries are not prone to analysis of lessons learned but it is a standard process in engineering...
gregmchugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2016, 11:08 PM   #213
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 2,002
Default

I keep seeing this being missed. This is by DESIGN.


Roadtrek wants systems that can be interchanged in various models.

To do this they have put ALL controls and devices in EACH battery box.

there is minimal control on the van's control panels battery turn on switches.

each battery has it's own BMS system.

that is the only way they can interchange and flex among all models.

they are not like ARV making a relative few.
gerrym51 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2016, 11:41 PM   #214
BBQ
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: East
Posts: 2,484
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gerrym51 View Post
I keep seeing this being missed. This is by DESIGN.
Roadtrek wants systems that can be interchanged in various models.
To do this they have put ALL controls and devices in EACH battery box.
there is minimal control on the van's control panels battery turn on switches.
each battery has it's own BMS system.
that is the only way they can interchange and flex among all models.
they are not like ARV making a relative few.



When you are dealing with large arrays,
each battery box SHOULD have its own BMS.
Actually, each battery box MUST have its own BMS.

Otherwise if one small cell ever goes down,
it can take ALL the batteries down with it,
and may even cause a fire or an explosion.
BBQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2016, 12:47 AM   #215
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 7,666
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBQ View Post
When you are dealing with large arrays,
each battery box SHOULD have its own BMS.
Actually, each battery box MUST have its own BMS.

Otherwise if one small cell ever goes down,
it can take ALL the batteries down with it,
and may even cause a fire or an explosion.
I agree, and would add that it is highly unlikely that the BMS is using the power. As we discussed earlier, it is most likely the current handling devices, eg relays, that are using the power. There is no reason for relays to use a lot of power. Reduced hold power use very little and bistable relays use none when holding. There is no good reason that a module should use 6 or 3 amps continuous, whichever it may be. It is just likely a poor design, IMO.
booster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2016, 03:09 PM   #216
Platinum Member
 
Davydd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4,513
Default

My comment to go buy and Roadtrek Etrek was made in jest. Go to a dealer and find out then. The speculation of parasitic drain is based on one comment by Hammill in a Facebook posting. Hammill is not always accurate in his comments. However, there have been comments here accepting it as gospel and necessary. But if true, it is not necessary, unless by Rube Goldberg design as gerryM51 speculates. It is not difficult to design a properly working Li-ion battery system. I think I have one as I don't experience those so called parasitic losses. I don't have to shut down batteries. I don't have a kludge set of AGM backups. I don't have to turn off my inverter at every opportunity as Roadtrek suggests. It is not my system design and not my expertise. It is Advanced RV's. I'm just an end user. So, I am not coming out of retirement.
__________________
Davydd
2015 Advanced RV Ocean One Mercedes Benz Sprinter
Previous Class Bs:
2011 Great West Van Legend Sprinter
2005 Pleasure-way Plateau TS Sprinter
Davydd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2016, 03:38 PM   #217
BBQ
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: East
Posts: 2,484
Default

.

That's exactly the problem of a public forum;
an off the cuff remarks here,
an out of context quote there,
then add a single incident report online,
and all of a sudden everything get transposed into authoritative statements.

Voila the party begins -- the armchair experts and fanboys and haters all jump-in to repeat the same misinformations everywhere.
BBQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2016, 08:44 PM   #218
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: CA
Posts: 1,605
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davydd View Post
My comment to go buy and Roadtrek Etrek was made in jest. Go to a dealer and find out then. The speculation of parasitic drain is based on one comment by Hammill in a Facebook posting. Hammill is not always accurate in his comments. However, there have been comments here accepting it as gospel and necessary. But if true, it is not necessary, unless by Rube Goldberg design as gerryM51 speculates. It is not difficult to design a properly working Li-ion battery system. I think I have one as I don't experience those so called parasitic losses. I don't have to shut down batteries. I don't have a kludge set of AGM backups. I don't have to turn off my inverter at every opportunity as Roadtrek suggests. It is not my system design and not my expertise. It is Advanced RV's. I'm just an end user. So, I am not coming out of retirement.
The ARV BMS operates without any parasitic drain?
cruising7388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2016, 08:52 PM   #219
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,240
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BBQ View Post
.

That's exactly the problem of a public forum;
an off the cuff remarks here,
an out of context quote there,
then add a single incident report online,
and all of a sudden everything get transposed into authoritative statements.

Voila the party begins -- the armchair experts and fanboys and haters all jump-in to repeat the same misinformations everywhere.
If these forums are so useless, I guess I wonder why you would be wasting your time participating??

If Roadtrek has the goal of spreading misinformation then I guess we can assume that their statements of both 35 watts internal power and 6 amps internal load are maybe both wrong or maybe both right in different circumstances or maybe one is right and the other is subterfuge meant to thwart anyone from figuring out their secret proprietary gee whiz bang new technology...

You do trigger my troll detector on occasion so maybe you are just here to create drama or just have a lot of time on your hands with nothing useful to do or whatever floats you boat...
gregmchugh is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-31-2016, 09:27 PM   #220
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: CA
Posts: 1,605
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmchugh View Post
If these forums are so useless, I guess I wonder why you would be wasting your time participating??

If Roadtrek has the goal of spreading misinformation then I guess we can assume that their statements of both 35 watts internal power and 6 amps internal load are maybe both wrong or maybe both right in different circumstances or maybe one is right and the other is subterfuge meant to thwart anyone from figuring out their secret proprietary gee whiz bang new technology...

You do trigger my troll detector on occasion so maybe you are just here to create drama or just have a lot of time on your hands with nothing useful to do or whatever floats you boat...
IMO, the redeeming aspect of a forum is the diversity of opinion. There's nothing to learn from someone that agrees with you.
__________________

cruising7388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:35 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×