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Old 04-21-2017, 04:01 AM   #1
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Default Hymer Sonne, 65.5k

This may not have as many features as a lot of "B"s, but the price is astounding, and I'm pretty sure one can negotiate it down a bit as well.

I know this has been talked about, and it is a fairly Spartan model, especially with a black/gray tank with 13 gallons, 200 ampere-hour battery bank, the Hymer/Roadtrek underhood generator, and no rear window on the starboard side... but it is a class "B", and fairly self contained.

I wonder if this will exert a real price pressure on the industry.
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Old 04-21-2017, 04:15 AM   #2
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Unless someone reports back otherwise, Roadtrek/Hymer margins are 10-15% depending on model and time of year. This line appears to be a Camping World exclusive, so there is no telling the deal they made. But they are obviously not selling this as a premium offering. The quality of the interior is appalling. So they are going to have to sell them at a big discount if they expect to outsell Travato - many have reported buying them at $60-$65k at some of the big dealers. I can't imagine being interested in Sonne unless they are selling in the low to mid 50's.
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Old 04-21-2017, 04:55 AM   #3
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The Sonne floorplan described on GoHymer.com is completely different from the Sunlight models available at Camping World. The Sonne has a length of 17-9, shower at the front, permanent double bed. I was told by the nearest Hymer dealer who has an Aktiv that I can't buy a Sonne in the U.S.

If anyone here has a specifications list for the Sunlight I would like to see this info. I'm still waiting for Camping World to send me anything at all on it.
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Old 04-21-2017, 07:34 AM   #4
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This thread is titled wrong. You are talking about the Sunlight v1, which is a stripped down model sold ONLY at Camping World. There are 30+ of them listed on RV Trader as currently at various Camping Worlds.

It is NOT the Sonne.

I actually saw a Sunlight this week. I like the floor plan, but it has the Ecotrek 200, which I already tried and dumped to go back to AGMs. The Camping Worlds know zilch about these units on their lots. I had to call Hymer to learn that it is not possible to do any special orders on these and/or add anything to what you see. Some of them are listed as low as $59K

The Sonne is a completely different unit and starts at $87K. It can be seen at the Go Hymer website: Go Hymer

I spoke to the East Coast Hymer rep this past week (about the Sunlight) and he also told me that the plan is that the Sonne will start to be delivered to US dealers (not Camping World) probably in June.
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Old 04-21-2017, 12:41 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by mumkin View Post
This thread is titled wrong. You are talking about the Sunlight v1, which is a stripped down model sold ONLY at Camping World. There are 30+ of them listed on RV Trader as currently at various Camping Worlds.
::

30+ of them at CW?


That explains Hymer's market share spike in @markopolo 's report.

http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f9...html#post56046


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Old 04-21-2017, 03:26 PM   #6
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Thank you, as I was conflating the two.

This explains a lot, because there is a paucity of details on the Camping World "B", and I was assuming someone mis-translated some German.

From the pictures of the Sunlight, it uses a conventional Suburban furnace, as well as a conventional, likely four gallon, water heater. The ironic thing is that the two units specced is more expensive than a Truma Combi.

I wonder how successful the Camping World model will be. I know that if they get the units into the 50k range, I know people who would buy them as starting points for something better.
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Old 04-21-2017, 03:32 PM   #7
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I wonder if they are missing a good size of the market by using the smaller tanks and such. Many of us that would buy a basic van with intentions of upgrading the systems to our personal choices would certainly be looking for the normal size tanks. Other stuff is easy to upgrade, but you need the vehicle specific, special, stuff like tanks to be there.
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Old 04-21-2017, 03:46 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booster View Post
I wonder if they are missing a good size of the market by using the smaller tanks and such. Many of us that would buy a basic van with intentions of upgrading the systems to our personal choices would certainly be looking for the normal size tanks. Other stuff is easy to upgrade, but you need the vehicle specific, special, stuff like tanks to be there.

Most of the first time buyers don't know better.

I have seen so many people who were shocked to find out the numerous hard facts after they have purchased their RV...

eg.

... that they cannot use the air conditioner all night
... that the generator is right below their bed and is noisy as hell
... that water is not unlimited
... that the first generation Travato only had an electric water heater
...

the list go on.


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Old 04-21-2017, 04:02 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by BBQ View Post
Most of the first time buyers don't know better.

I have seen so many people who were shocked to find out the numerous hard facts after they have purchased their RV...

eg.

... that they cannot use the air conditioner all night
... that the generator is right below their bed and is noisy as hell
... that water is not unlimited
... that the first generation Travato only had an electric water heater
...

the list go on.

All true, but the folks I am referring to would likely not be first timers, but maybe folks with older units that want to get into a modern chassis, and know what they want to upgrade to suit there needs.They also understand they need the good basics that can't just be modified up.
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Old 04-21-2017, 05:07 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBQ View Post
Most of the first time buyers don't know better.

I have seen so many people who were shocked to find out the numerous hard facts after they have purchased their RV...

eg.

... that they cannot use the air conditioner all night
... that the generator is right below their bed and is noisy as hell
... that water is not unlimited
... that the first generation Travato only had an electric water heater
...

the list go on.


Could I ask you to expand this list? This is actually really useful to me as a first-time buyer. Seriously - help me find my blind spots.
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Old 04-21-2017, 05:34 PM   #11
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Some of it is getting used to RVs. Other times, it is a compromise.

There are so many questions about the Sunlight model, that I might just have to hit Camping World and take a look at one. A few questions I wonder about:
  • What A/C does it have in BTUs?
  • Does it really have a 13 gallon black/gray tank combined? That sounds pretty puny to me.
  • What are the specs on the furnace and water heater?
  • Does it use an "engine generator", or have none at all?
  • How big is the fridge? Usable like the Travato's "K" fridge that is fairly deep, or more like a small truck camper icebox?
  • How usable/comfy are the beds? It appears that they fold down to be slept on transversely.
  • Where does the sewage hose go?

Some things can be worked around. If the rooftop A/C (assuming it has one) runs from the alternator, that isn't too bad. However, I do wonder what show-stoppers that can't really be fixed are present. One that comes to mind is the combined gray/black water tank. 13 gallons means that two showers, and your boondocking expedition is done, pretty much.
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Old 04-22-2017, 04:58 AM   #12
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Hopefully the CW that you visit has more information than the zero that the one I visited has. LOL

I can tell you that the fridge is the same 3.1 12v/110 that comes in the RT Agile (and that I special ordered in my 170). It's small.

The AC looks the same as the one that is in the Activ.

The beds are set up to be slept on as twins or a king... sleeping front to back. (like the Travato)

I don't know if it has the underhood generator... but since it has the Ecotrek 200... it just might.
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Old 04-22-2017, 05:34 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JeanM View Post
Could I ask you to expand this list? This is actually really useful to me as a first-time buyer. Seriously - help me find my blind spots.
... that they cannot use the air conditioner all night
Most B Vans need to be plugged in to shore power or running a generator to run the air conditioning. Many Road Trek buyers look at the lithium battery system and are under the assumption that the system will run their A/C for an unlimited amount of time, alternating between the "underhood generator" and the batteries. Turns out, from what I understand, This is not the case, despite what the salespeople say.

... that the generator is right below their bed and is noisy as hell:
Most people are not comfortable with the noise from generators for long amounts of time. (We have a Travato though, and find very little use for the generator at all) The solar and alternator keep the batteries charged.

... that water is not unlimited:
Water Storage in any Class B is extremely limited (10-30 gals); We have found Fresh Water and tank sizes to be the first "limiting" factor in the length of time one can boondock (not power or gas). But even then (in our case), we can make the water and tanks last far longer than we are interested in staying in one spot, so it has never been an issue.

... that the first generation Travato only had an electric water heater:
I guess the 2014 model year did not have a gas water heater, so the only way you could get hot water was to be plugged in. I have a 2016, which has a Truma, which gives silent quick hot water whenever needed (with gas OR AC Power)
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Old 04-23-2017, 01:01 AM   #14
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... that they cannot use the air conditioner all night
Most B Vans need to be plugged in to shore power or running a generator to run the air conditioning. Many Road Trek buyers look at the lithium battery system and are under the assumption that the system will run their A/C for an unlimited amount of time, alternating between the "underhood generator" and the batteries. Turns out, from what I understand, This is not the case, despite what the salespeople say.

... that the generator is right below their bed and is noisy as hell:
Most people are not comfortable with the noise from generators for long amounts of time. (We have a Travato though, and find very little use for the generator at all) The solar and alternator keep the batteries charged.

... that water is not unlimited:
Water Storage in any Class B is extremely limited (10-30 gals); We have found Fresh Water and tank sizes to be the first "limiting" factor in the length of time one can boondock (not power or gas). But even then (in our case), we can make the water and tanks last far longer than we are interested in staying in one spot, so it has never been an issue.

... that the first generation Travato only had an electric water heater:
I guess the 2014 model year did not have a gas water heater, so the only way you could get hot water was to be plugged in. I have a 2016, which has a Truma, which gives silent quick hot water whenever needed (with gas OR AC Power)
Thanks, this is helpful!
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Old 04-23-2017, 04:36 AM   #15
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... that they cannot use the air conditioner all night
Most B Vans need to be plugged in to shore power or running a generator to run the air conditioning. Many Road Trek buyers look at the lithium battery system and are under the assumption that the system will run their A/C for an unlimited amount of time, alternating between the "underhood generator" and the batteries. Turns out, from what I understand, This is not the case, despite what the salespeople say.)
Not exactly. It's true that you can't use the air conditioner all night from batteries (unless the coach is equipped with the 1600-ah warp core option.)

It's also true that regardless of your battery capacity, once the batteries are drained, Voltstart will not extend battery operation appreciably because the engine alternator output is insufficient to both power the AC and also provide good charging amperage to the batteries.

IMO, this issue is best dealt with by eliminating batteries and Voltstart from the picture when you need AC for legthy periods. Just let the engine idle, turn the dash AC on full blast and the AC will run until the coach runs out of gas or your internal hypothermia alarm goes off. This certainly has to provide a better night's sleep than being awakened periodically by engine starts.
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Old 04-23-2017, 03:35 PM   #16
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Personally, I don't think anyone should sleep in any vehicle with the motor running, and based on how many air gaps our Roadtrek had to fumes to enter, RVs are likely the worst. Detectors or not, it is just not a good idea. Same goes for the generator, IMO.

I can't imagine a campground full of vehicles running all night.

That said, I have long advocated to run the engine AC rather than the coach AC off batteries. I just wouldn't do it while sleeping.
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Old 04-23-2017, 06:20 PM   #17
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Voltstart (or Autogen in my case) couples with a second alternator not the engine alternator that has limited output. But anyway, it is possible to get consistent 280 amps per hour charging with the right alternator and stay way ahead and even have up to 10 hours of idling on 5 starts (not Roadtrek though). It's possible. I can. I could possibly get through a night without an auto start. It is a moot discussion in my opinion. Because...

It will never happen with me. One, I will never run the engine or air conditioner at night as I consider that idea of camping in hell and if you have a campsite that permits it then you are probably in with the big rigs and that is further deeper in a special kind of hell. With desert camping the temperatures cool off dramatically anyway. This is my solution the one time I got caught in high temps in Kansas. However, this photo for illustrative purposes was Quartzsite in Arizona. You will probably never see me south of the Mason-Dixon line in the summer.



If conditions are so dire at night the obvious thing to do is seek a shore power campsite.

The other silly discussion is leaving pets in your B and running an air conditioner. I've said it is a bad idea especially if you think you are going to rely on auto starting and idling which is an attention magnet that will more than likely get you in trouble with a barking dog especially if you think you are going to do it on a public street or parking lot. If you travel with a dog, bite the bullet and plan otherwise. Many Class B owners do travel with dogs and most don't have the capability of off-grid air conditioning and figure it out.

There are legitimate concerns. People need to run cpap machines overnight. It is nice to have ceiling fan air circulation. With low power 12V compressor refrigeration you'll never consider 3-way absorption refrigeration again. You should simply design to accommodate your concerns in that regard. I did go further and chose to go transparent with my electrical operations 24/7 120V use when off-grid no different than being connected to shore power, and not have to rely on auto starting to achieve it. This is a concept I promote and until you experience it you don't really realize the freedom you gain in choices where you might stay in any one night.
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Old 04-28-2017, 06:17 PM   #18
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I just purchased a Sunlight V1 and I have the Hymer spec sheet.

11K BTU AC, 16K BTU propane Furnace, 6 gallon propane water heater, .7 cf microwave, 2K watt inverter, 5.9 gallon propane tank, 3.1 cf fridge (electric only), 12v macerator/gravity dump, 17.6 gallon fresh water, 23.1 gallon grey/black combo

Mine has 200 lithium and under hood generator. Was told it will run AC for 1 to 2 hours. Lithium packs will recharge much faster than AGM. Time will tell once I get a chance to fully try the system out.

I liked the idea of the Sonne version as well but after looking closer at the shower space the Sunlight V1 seems to have much more space overall. Also only having a double bed versus a king option in the Sunlight was important to me. I don't need something less than 18' long. I just didn't want the full 21' version. So the 19'.6" works best for me.

Roadtrek with lithium and higher end options push the pricing up in the 90k+ range. Just too high for me if you really compare the option differences. I don't plan to camp with mine more than 2/3 days max at a time. All depends on what your use and needs and $$ threshold come down to.
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Old 04-28-2017, 08:02 PM   #19
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I just purchased a Sunlight V1 and I have the Hymer spec sheet.

11K BTU AC, 16K BTU propane Furnace, 6 gallon propane water heater, .7 cf microwave, 2K watt inverter, 5.9 gallon propane tank, 3.1 cf fridge (electric only), 12v macerator/gravity dump, 17.6 gallon fresh water, 23.1 gallon grey/black combo

Mine has 200 lithium and under hood generator. Was told it will run AC for 1 to 2 hours. Lithium packs will recharge much faster than AGM. Time will tell once I get a chance to fully try the system out.

I liked the idea of the Sonne version as well but after looking closer at the shower space the Sunlight V1 seems to have much more space overall. Also only having a double bed versus a king option in the Sunlight was important to me. I don't need something less than 18' long. I just didn't want the full 21' version. So the 19'.6" works best for me.

Roadtrek with lithium and higher end options push the pricing up in the 90k+ range. Just too high for me if you really compare the option differences. I don't plan to camp with mine more than 2/3 days max at a time. All depends on what your use and needs and $$ threshold come down to.

All that for $60k?
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Old 04-28-2017, 08:48 PM   #20
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All that for $60k?
With the 200 ecotrek system and generator it pushes it up to 63/64 range. Some others may have more luck negotiating lower but I felt it was a pretty good deal for the options and functionality. The shower/toilet area is far and away better than the Simplicity SRT for size and range to move around.

As others have mentioned, the quality level of the interior parts is not as nice as higher end units for sure. But I'm not expecting that at this price point. Winnebago makes beautiful cabinets (and Pleasure Way) but I'm camping, not glamping...
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