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Old 01-14-2015, 06:26 AM   #1
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Default Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

We had the new Euro Van chassis models from Ford and Fiat hit the roads here in the US, giving competition to the Sprinter. Solar has gotten cheaper to the point where it is standard equipment. Same with LEDs and inverters. European companies are starting to step in, offering appliances which are a generation ahead from what have been in the US for ages, saving space (having one appliance work as a water heater and furnace saves a lot of room compared to two discrete items.) RT's "engine generation" technology is spreading, and using a second alternator to power batteries will be the norm and not the exception soon. Even beds have improved now that Froli is in the US market.

I wonder what advances will be next in the "B" market in the upcoming years?

I am guessing, there will be the incremental advances. A move to lithium-based batteries. Hybrid inverters that allow for appliances to run from the batteries, shore power, the engine's alternator, a generator, solar, or a combination of the above without issue.

Then, there will be the major advances. 4WD and AWD would become at least an option. Truma's VeGA propane and EFOY's methanol based fuel cells drop in price and become an option to keep the batteries topped off even at night. Flexible solar panels become inexpensive enough that they become part of awnings, and rigs get two awnings -- the normal one on the curbside, and one on the street side just for additional power generation.

I think we are probably going to hit a plateau (similar to how "B" development levelled off once things settled down after the T1N Sprinter was introduced) where evolutionary stuff is going to go on, as opposed to revolutionary.
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Old 01-14-2015, 03:12 PM   #2
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Default Re: Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

My guesses based on things you listed:

More Solar - yes
More Led's - yes
Truma heat / hot water combo type units - yes
Froli - I haven't tried it so no guess on that
Lithium-based batteries - yes in high priced units unless prices really drop
Inverters - yes
Alternators instead of separate generators - that's going to depend on Sprinter, Ram, Ford etc. operating guidelines IMO
Dual alternators - not sure if needed when you can have a single 280a alternator for example
Factory 4WD - yes it's coming
Solar on awnings - too risky IMO - stories of awnings ripped off by wind ......
Propane, gas or diesel fuel cell - yes, Methanol - I'd think no because it is an additional fuel to carry

Additionally:
App integration for systems monitoring and control, motorized window coverings, dual macerator/gravity dump systems,

We should begin to see some real data from lithium battery based units that will help determine "right sizing" capacity deployments.

Ford Transit based Class B's - yes

Shift to gasoline engined units - maybe
More manufacturer flexibility for custom options - yes

Some sort of same fuel as main engine fuel cell combined with lithium based batteries might just hit the right spot with buyers if it is super quiet and can run almost unnoticed for hours if needed.
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Old 01-14-2015, 03:36 PM   #3
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Default Re: Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

Maybe the industry will head toward higher DC voltages for the entire coach. Even at 48v, everything would be considered non-hazardous (if I remember my arcflash training correctly), but wire size could be 1/4 that of a 12v system. Of course, that would require the engine generator for coach to be a separate 48v one, but a lot of that is already done. 12v is really an inefficient voltage to run when you start talking about 1000 watt microwaves, hair dryers, etc through inverters, and very high charge rates.

I agree that we could see the gas engines make a comeback, especially if the diesels continue to have questions of idling. IIRC correctly, the diesel fuel has 11-13% more energy in it, so if the gassers get to that much less mileage difference, efficiency would be the same. Direct injection, turbo, gas engines, if as efficient as diesel, would have fewer downsides. The question might be if they can run at the higher loads imposed by an engine generator without a special catalytic converter to prevent overheating the converter.

Good fuel cells would totally get rid of the other generator questions, I would think.
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Old 01-14-2015, 04:13 PM   #4
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Default Re: Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

I don't have much experience with 48 volts other than working with it in a NEBS environment (telco.) I have read that above 12 volts, the charge can overcome skin resistance, especially when the skin is wet. With how quickly people sue, it may nix 48 volt usage. However, you are right -- 48 volts would be ideal, and stepping the voltage down to 12 and 5 volts is a lot less of a waste of power than passing it through an inverter. 48 volts also means skinnier wires, which is always a good thing.

Right now, diesel engines are going through what gas engines went through in 1973... Draconian EPA regs have sent every auto maker back to the drawing board, and what is out, has issues, be it biodiesel problems, clogged particulate filters, pump failures, and electronic engine issues. It may take a decade, but I am hoping that this should be ironed out soon, and diesels get back their iron-clad reliability status.

Gas engines are pretty solid. With the latest fuel rail fuel injection, they are getting to the point where not many more improvements can be made on a normally aspirated vehicle, so eventually supercharging or turbocharging may end up the norm, rather than just Ford's EcoBoost baby.

Of course, if there is a major advance in battery density, everything goes out the window, as a hybrid "B" would bring another generation of electrical advances.

As of now, the fuel cells I've seen go up to around 240 watts, or about 10-20 amps. Good enough to keep the batteries going when the furnace fan is sucking its 7 amp-hours worth of energy, but definitely not good enough to handle a compressor or microwave. I don't see any real advances in fuel cells to allow for higher burn rates anytime soon, although it would be nice to get rid of the generator and have a fuel cell that can burn at a slow rate for keeping the batteries topped off, but go at full tilt to handle larger electrical loads.

Markopolo brings up a good point... I forgot about multiplexed wiring systems. Those are standard on Interstates and seem to be the norm across the board now.

Another item might be electrical controllers. A friend of mine is an embedded systems programmer and rigged an Arduino to not just monitor current and voltage across all major lines (shore power, generator, batteries, battery charger, solar CC, solar panels, etc.), but he has his system configured to fire up the generator (and the A/C) if the temperature rises past a certain point (due to pets), and as a backup if the generator fails, start the vehicle's engine and run the A/C from a secondary alternator. I wouldn't be surprised to see EMS models built in with load shedding and the ability to fire up a generator or the vehicle's engine even if the rig is in storage to keep the batteries charged.

High efficiency flexible solar panels will make things quite interesting. If they are within 90-95% of rigid panels with regard to light collection, they might just be useful in a number of ways. Solar panels themselves probably will improve, so shading a corner of a panel doesn't cut the amount of electrical output by 50-99%.
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Old 01-14-2015, 04:34 PM   #5
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Default Re: Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

Hopefully I am getting the state of the art in most things Marko listed. I was a tad too early for the Sprinter 4x4 for me. I am already jealous of the many ARV customers who have ordered. I'm not jealous of their late 2015 and 2016 delivery dates.

The second alternator issue: The biggest gain as I understand it is faster charging especially coupled with lithium ion batteries. I think the concern about idling is an issue that is a bit over blown because both Roadtrek and Advanced RV have dismissed it and the real truth is I won't have my RV as long as it takes to become a problem by even Mercedes Benz' estimates. The faster charging to me means I won't do much idling. I also think it will diminish my need for the solar panels. The nature of the Class B is we don't sit still. A quick trip into a town to replenish my beer supply will re-charge a day's worth of battery drain.

Even so, we are getting 480 watts of solar from three flexible solar panels each separated with diodes in sections to negate the shading factor diminishing the whole panel. Each panel will have its own MPPT controller. Maybe with that one rare time event of parking at Burning Man for four days in the Nevada desert it will pay dividends.

One advantage of the Sprinter diesel is we are getting Espar diesel fired heat and hot water. It is located under the chassis so that alone is saving the space those typical Suburban propane 6 gallon hot water heaters take up. All reports I have read is it works great. Avanti has it in his Great West Van.

There is one item, the VB Air Suspension on Sprinters that I think is super. It totally changes the feel and handling. I wonder how soon the other converters will look at that or other suspension improvements.

I can't wait to introduce my piece de resistance. I wish I could tell you now but I haven't seen it yet and I hope it comes off as I envisioned. January 26.
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Old 01-14-2015, 04:39 PM   #6
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Default Re: Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

Postscript: Boondocking spurred on big time by Roadtrek might drag the others in to breaking away from the big RV style of driving to formal campgrounds and hooking up. Right now that is how most Class Bs are designed. This alone will drive more innovation.
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Old 01-14-2015, 05:28 PM   #7
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Default Re: Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

We'll camp in Provincial Parks or National Parks etc. without any hookups for up to week but I'm pretty sure that's not what you are referring to with the term boondocking.

What does boondocking mean? Where do you do it? How long do you stay there?
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Old 01-14-2015, 05:43 PM   #8
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Default Re: Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

boondocking to me means no hookups NEEDED
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Old 01-14-2015, 05:47 PM   #9
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Default Re: Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

Quote:
Originally Posted by markopolo
We'll camp in Provincial Parks or National Parks etc. without any hookups for up to week but I'm pretty sure that's not what you are referring to with the term boondocking.

What does boondocking mean? Where do you do it? How long do you stay there?
And does boondocking mean no water or dump station available, or if it is, how far away? Take the water and dump out of the equation, and you can be out until you starve to death if you have enough solar
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Old 01-14-2015, 06:00 PM   #10
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Default Re: Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

I think I get it. No hookups = normal operation to me. Those are the best sites!

People in campervans have been "boondocking" for five decades now. Try it, if you haven't
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Old 01-14-2015, 06:06 PM   #11
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Default Re: Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

--I agree that undercarriage-mounted diesel-fired hydronic heating/hot-water systems as used by Great West and ARV are da bomb. We love ours. Works great and saves tons of space. Bound to become common. I'm sure it can be done with gasoline as well.

--Absorption refrigerators are not long for this world. The advantages of electric compressor units are overwhelming

--I hope that the industry finally gets over the crazy idea of having separate black and gray tanks. Combined tanks work better, take less space, are cheaper, and are easier to use. It amazes me sometimes how long it takes an industry to drop an old habit that used to make sense but no longer does.

--Multiplexed wiring makes sense (saves a lot of weight), but I am skeptical of highly-integrated coach automation systems. This was one of the big negatives when we considered ARV. These systems are glitzy and no doubt show well in the showroom. Living with them might be another matter. I design stuff like that for a living, so I am not at all afraid of the technology. But, given the distances involved inside a B-van, I think that well-designed direct control of individual systems makes more sense in most cases, providing maximum flexibility with little loss of convenience. In our new van we specified a marine-style switch panel that gives us very fine-tuned control of various loads: fridge, entertainment, data-comm, inverter, propane solenoid, etc. More importantly, the maintainability of bespoke programmed controllers over time is a big issue. This stuff evolves very rapidly, and I predict that a lot of people are going to be left high and dry with a van full of obsolete components when they begin to fail. Some automation makes sense (such as auto-start of generators in a kennel-van). But these functions are better done using features of the systems themselves, rather than with a central automation system, IMO.

--i think there is a lot of room for innovation in interior furniture and fittings. For example, just as sofas electrically transform to beds, one can imagine the whole interior of the van morphing Transformer-style from "cooking/eating mode" to "lounging mode" to "shower mode" to "sleeping mode" at the push of a button. Also, there may be a revolution in building techniques. Instead of hard carpentry, interiors could be formed from molded soft self-skinning foam, the way car dashboards are made. One could imagine soft, cozy interiors with few hard surfaces and no painful corners.

--Looking a little further ahead, I think we will have all-electric vans sooner than people suspect. Elon is serious, and when his mega-factory is fully on-line it will have a pretty dramatic effect on price, and I am guessing he intends to produce a lot more than is needed just for Teslas. You could fit a LOT of battery under a Sprinter-sized van so if prices come down things will happen quickly. Whether the propulsion power system will be integrated with the house systems is another question. Even the Tesla has a separate 12V battery for auxiliary use.
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Old 01-14-2015, 07:03 PM   #12
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Default Re: Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

I did forget to mention that with fuel cells and other methods of keeping batteries topped off, the need for an absorption refrigerator goes out the window. In a stick and brick house where I can pay $2000 for a fridge that is Internet connected versus a $2000 propane absorption fridge, I'll pay for the gas fridge, as it will work regardless of power and won't be an easy target for hackers. However, in RVs, the absorption fridge just needs to go the way of the dodo.

All electric vehicles will change everything. One big thing is that there wouldn't have to be a separate chassis and coach heater and A/C. One unit would work no matter if the vehicle is on the road or stopped. Imagine the space saved if the engine and all its additional components is reduced to the size of a watermelon, just like in a Tesla. In fact, the entire shape of a vehicle could be changed, so that the hood and the space there can be styled away, or repurposed as an area for storage (as what is done with some Tesla models.) If the van's body is reshaped, it would give several feet of extra space. Of course, battery SoC will be even more critical... too low, and one may end up stranded trying to hit the road home.

Maybe I am old fashioned, and I do think multiplexed wiring is a nifty thing... but I prefer old fashioned switches, just because they are less hassle when they break, and a multiplexed wiring system may not support a replacement appliance. For example, say one has an appliance (an A/C unit comes to mind), the maker goes out of business, the appliance breaks and has to be replaced. This may be a tough task with a multiplexed wiring system, because it may not allow the replacement appliance to function. What might be interesting is a multivendor standard for multiplexed controllers. That way, a controller will work with future appliances, and future controllers would work with past items. However, with this comes complexity. There is something to be said about discrete switches and thermostats since if the porch light switch breaks, it doesn't affect the A/C.

Combined black and gray tanks are a mixed blessing. Here in Texas, if I get permission from a property owner, I can dump a gray tank without issue. I am forbidden to dump a black tank even with permission, so if I have a combined tank, I have to find a dump station or break the law (which isn't a good idea, as the Texas DPS can do heavy fines quite quickly.)
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Old 01-14-2015, 07:29 PM   #13
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Default Re: Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

It will be interesting to see how the all electric (including van drivetrain turns out over time). We drove 820 miles the last day of our fall trip to get home, at quite high speeds (67mph average). It took a bit of gas, and there is no way any current technology could have done it with electric. If they can make big fuel cells capable of supporting 250hp, then you would be good to go
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:06 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gerrym51
boondocking to me means no hookups NEEDED
This.

That has been Roadtrek's mantra lately. It is easy to camp or boondock without hookups if you are experienced, but the next phase to me is being able to do so without a crippled B electrically in not being able to use appliances and outlets and without need to run a generator to achieve such. The key is the big inverter and larger than the traditional battery bank of one or two batteries. Solar also helps if you remained parked long periods. I think 400ah would do it.

BTW, I asked ARV about the second alternator.

Why the second alternator running off the engine? (curiosity question for general info.)

The design goal was to have an off the grid all electric motor home without using a generator. The MB alternator is controlled be the MB CAN Bus network so we could not control the charge pattern for LI Cells. We install the second one to be able to have full control.


Also, I learned there is simultaneous charging going on with the alternator, solar and even shore power if hooked up. There is no limit to the charge current input for the lithium ion batteries which means things can charge up pretty fast. There is digital charge control to prevent overcharging.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:23 PM   #15
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Default Re: Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

Quote:
Originally Posted by booster
It will be interesting to see how the all electric (including van drivetrain turns out over time). We drove 820 miles the last day of our fall trip to get home, at quite high speeds (67mph average). It took a bit of gas, and there is no way any current technology could have done it with electric.
Maybe. But, here is the Tesla supercharger network today:

Here is their projection for 2016.

It will be a while yet, but as I said, things are moving quickly.

Oh, and did I mention that using a Supercharger is free?
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:26 PM   #16
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Default Re: Wonder what big advances will hit "B"s next

Quote:
Originally Posted by avanti
--I hope that the industry finally gets over the crazy idea of having separate black and gray tanks. Combined tanks work better, take less space, are cheaper, and are easier to use. It amazes me sometimes how long it takes an industry to drop an old habit that used to make sense but no longer does.
On this one I thought the all in one black tank is actually old technology. My 1971 Airstream trailer had just the one tank. I would have to believe going to a black and grey tank for dumping with a 3" hose was a godsend. It made for a much cleaner operation. Dump black. Close valve. Dump grey. Close valve. Usually the hose is fairly clean once the mostly soapy grey water flows through. Does it make a difference with a macerator? Maybe not but I would like to think running 26 gallons of grey water through after black would help. I'll soon find out.

I'll have 26 gallons grey and 18 gallons black. I'm not so sure you could find a place under a Class B where you could put a 44 gallon tank. The fresh water tank at 40 gallons is a rotomolded tank with all kinds of nooks and crannies to maximize fit that you would not want in a waste tank. Those are some of the biggest tanks on a B.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:34 PM   #17
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Well, I had a single-tank Airstream Interstate with a macerator for 8 years. They had no trouble finding a space (and, it could be split if necessary. As long as the nooks and crannies are not at the bottom, there is no issue), and I absolutely loved it. Works FAR better, since there is always enough liquid to facilitate a dump and prevent buildup--often a problem with a separate black tank. Perhaps an argument can be made if you are of the gravity dump persuasion, but with a fully-sealed macerator system, I can report from experience that it is a total non-issue.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:43 PM   #18
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I forget about the "all electric" or nearly all electric rigs when thinking about camping with no hookups. Yes, you would need more batteries than rigs with propane. The fridge is a prime example. Norcold's recent “Freedom Unplugged” campaign http://www.norcold.com/norcold/interior.html was interesting to see. It's like a re-discovery of a practical solution for off grid use.

Good topic - lots of viewpoints & interesting ideas.
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Old 01-14-2015, 08:45 PM   #19
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i read somewhere- i can't remember-that combined black/gray tanks are no longer allowed. i can't remember why though.
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Old 01-14-2015, 10:54 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markopolo
I forget about the "all electric" or nearly all electric rigs when thinking about camping with no hookups. Yes, you would need more batteries than rigs with propane. The fridge is a prime example. Norcold's recent “Freedom Unplugged” campaign http://www.norcold.com/norcold/interior.html was interesting to see. It's like a re-discovery of a practical solution for off grid use.

Good topic - lots of viewpoints & interesting ideas.
Norcold is fighting back. "No extra batteries, no inverter, and no generator." I'm eliminating the generator too. In doing so with diesel powered heat and hot water it made more sense to eliminate the absorption refrigerator along with all propane. So, no vents on the outside. Level is not an issue. I have to be level anyway for comfort.

I have the extra battery power. The AC-DC compressor refrigerator uses less than a third the energy on DC which is an advantage for short stops like lunch that almost required you to switch to propane with the absorption refrigerator if you are on one or two batteries. Mid day I am hoping the solar will replenish the batteries for the compressor refrigerator stops, but with our batteries and alternator charging power it probably is going to be irrelevant if we drive before and after lunch. It will, in theory, if we are just stopped and camping. I'm anxious to find out. Our refrigerator will probably use up about 80 amps per day and our 480 watt solar should on average contribute almost twice that.
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