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Old 09-21-2019, 06:04 AM   #1
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Default Embassy RV rejuvenated class b's

Embassy RV (part of SVO group) has been dabbling in class b’s while their primary business has been commercial van and truck based vehicles such as a mobile medical lab inside a Promaster or tour vans. They claim to have several thousand commercial units in the field.

Now they’ve redesigned their class b interiors in a standardized “sleep forward” format and are making it available in 3 sizes on Promaster, Sprinter, and Transit van chassies. For now they are factory direct out of Elkhart but don’t rule out future dealers.

The new builds have some really unique features such as:

*6.8 cu. ft. compressor fridge/freezer

*power merge for the forward twin beds

*Standard Lithionics 300AH lithium battery: second module optional for 600AH

*Optional GU (Nations)

*Hard-door closeable bath with shower

*Cassette or compost toilet

*Clever moveable-bladder-separated 23 gal fresh/grey tank

*Ozone water purification system (chlorine rinse unnecessary)

*ProAir 20k BTU ceiling 12V AC with 5 fan and 2 compressor speeds

*Hydronic heat/hot water for both diesel and gas coaches

*No propane

*Wood-free build

*Yacht quality plumbing fixtures

*Aircraft grade insulation

*All systems: battery, plumbing, tanks above floor for all season capability

*For the larger models there’s an optional queen size tent rear pop-out

The factory direct price on the medium size floorpan on a 2020 20’ Promaster chassis is about $108k plus options according to Terry Minix, general manager.

They are just getting started launching their new builds and have basic information on the Embassyrv.com website. They are adding descriptive videos weekly on their site.

The website has photos of the small floorpan in the Sprinter and the Promaster medium plan.

Take a look. It’s amazing how much storage there is too.

There’s a lot of detail missing at this point, but it sure looks like they should become a viable competitor given their value proposition.

Anyone want to buy a slightly used Axion?
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Old 09-21-2019, 03:30 PM   #2
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Interesting.

Having owned one of the pre-Thor all aluminum/no wood Livinlite Camplites, I really like the aluminum/composite interior - far more than any wood, cardboard, MDF, staples from anhy other RV mfg.

Seems like they can build on all three chassis mfg's and any length chassis.

Lots of potential.
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Old 09-21-2019, 04:27 PM   #3
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First place I've seen any sort of pricing for these B rv's. I appreciate you posting that. It allows for more informed comparisons.
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Old 09-21-2019, 05:16 PM   #4
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Default Omitted features

As far as I can tell, some common class b features are not standard on the Embassy class b’s. Notable are an awning, opening side windows and solar. Lacking these contributes to a high OCCC.

In most cases solar doesn’t make sense on a class b, especially with lithium’s and a GU, but manufacturers include it for political correctness.

Optional side slider windows are $438 each but are made less necessary by standard weather protected front and rear powered ceiling vents which can be set 1 in 1 out for plenty of ventilation.

I always thought awnings on a class b were silly since you have no storage to carry outdoor pads and furniture. But Embassy offers Flamma options.

Nice to see some common sense in these configurations.
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Old 09-21-2019, 07:14 PM   #5
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Smith101 - thanks for posting this info on Embassy vans. I stumbled across them this week myself. Interesting vans.

But when did solar become politicized? You either need it to supplement your use or you don’t.

I carry two folding camp chairs and a ground mat in my van. They don’t take up much space.
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Old 09-21-2019, 07:16 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by Smith101 View Post
Embassy RV (part of SVO group) has been dabbling in class b’s while their primary business has been commercial van and truck based vehicles such as a mobile medical lab inside a Promaster or tour vans. They claim to have several thousand commercial units in the field.

Now they’ve redesigned their class b interiors in a standardized “sleep forward” format and are making it available in 3 sizes on Promaster, Sprinter, and Transit van chassies. For now they are factory direct out of Elkhart but don’t rule out future dealers.

The new builds have some really unique features such as:

*6.8 cu. ft. compressor fridge/freezer

*power merge for the forward twin beds

*Standard Lithionics 300AH lithium battery: second module optional for 600AH

*Optional GU (Nations)

*Hard-door closeable bath with shower

*Cassette or compost toilet

*Clever moveable-bladder-separated 23 gal fresh/grey tank

*Ozone water purification system (chlorine rinse unnecessary)

*ProAir 20k BTU ceiling 12V AC with 5 fan and 2 compressor speeds

*Hydronic heat/hot water for both diesel and gas coaches

*No propane

*Wood-free build

*Yacht quality plumbing fixtures

*Aircraft grade insulation

*All systems: battery, plumbing, tanks above floor for all season capability

*For the larger models there’s an optional queen size tent rear pop-out

The factory direct price on the medium size floorpan on a 2020 20’ Promaster chassis is about $108k plus options according to Terry Minix, general manager.

They are just getting started launching their new builds and have basic information on the Embassyrv.com website. They are adding descriptive videos weekly on their site.

The website has photos of the small floorpan in the Sprinter and the Promaster medium plan.

Take a look. It’s amazing how much storage there is too.

There’s a lot of detail missing at this point, but it sure looks like they should become a viable competitor given their value proposition.

Anyone want to buy a slightly used Axion?
Do you know what is an aircraft grade insulation?
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Old 09-21-2019, 10:14 PM   #7
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Do you know what is an aircraft grade insulation?
I can see what the term implies, but I can't find much of a definition. Embassy says they have between 6 and 8 layers of 'aircraft style' R-5 insulation. They claim it is cumulative, although they don't explicitly state total R-40, so hard to say what the final figure might actually be. They tout their insulation as one of their big selling points. If it is anywhere near R-40, or even half that for that matter, that might force others to up their insulation game. They also say it doesn't absorb moisture or odors.
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Old 09-21-2019, 11:27 PM   #8
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In most cases solar doesn’t make sense on a class b, especially with lithium’s and a GU, but manufacturers include it for political correctness.
I wouldn't be so fast to jump to "political correctness" accusations. Solar, IMO, is nearly essential in any B-van that (a) has lead/acid batteries and (b) is parked outdoors without access to shore power (and that covers a LOT of vans). The obvious reason is battery maintenance. A modest solar setup with a good charge controller significantly simplifies storage and is likely to noticeably increase battery life. The amount of solar needed for this purpose is easily achievable on a class-B, and the cost is modest.

I agree with Boxter: politicizing a purely pragmatic technology decision is silly.
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Old 09-21-2019, 11:29 PM   #9
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*Clever moveable-bladder-separated 23 gal fresh/grey tank?
Hmmm. Good idea in principle. I just hope the MTBF is vert high.
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Old 09-22-2019, 12:52 AM   #10
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Default Bladder separated tank

My 8 year old Bissel carpet cleaner has such a tank and it’s always worked well
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Old 09-22-2019, 01:02 AM   #11
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I wouldn't be so fast to jump to "political correctness" accusations. Solar, IMO, is nearly essential in any B-van that (a) has lead/acid batteries and (b) is parked outdoors without access to shore power (and that covers a LOT of vans). The obvious reason is battery maintenance. A modest solar setup with a good charge controller significantly simplifies storage and is likely to noticeably increase battery life. The amount of solar needed for this purpose is easily achievable on a class-B, and the cost is modest.

I agree with Boxter: politicizing a purely pragmatic technology decision is silly.
Some solar systems like the one in my Axion make a negative contribution. The 200w solar output goes only to the AGM backup which boots the BMS when the lithiums are too low. Not one electron goes to power anything in the van. The GU charges the lithium’s and the AGM in just a few minutes of driving. The weight and drag of the solar is never recovered. Yet RT was perfectly happy to let people to think they were getting useable solar power. And users couldn’t tell but they felt better about the illusion because of political correctness. As I said it can make more sense in other systems
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Old 09-22-2019, 01:10 AM   #12
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Do you know what is an aircraft grade insulation?
Actually I don’t and should have used Binny’s term “style”. In one of their videos Minix describes this multi layer method as similar to aviation application.

As an aside, he also said that in high roof Transits more insulation would go into the floor to combat pavement heat. That can be significant as FitRV found out when their Lithionics shut down from overheating while driving. Other vans don’t have the excess headroom.
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Old 09-22-2019, 07:12 AM   #13
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I wouldn't be so fast to jump to "political correctness" accusations. Solar, IMO, is nearly essential in any B-van that (a) has lead/acid batteries and (b) is parked outdoors without access to shore power (and that covers a LOT of vans). The obvious reason is battery maintenance. A modest solar setup with a good charge controller significantly simplifies storage and is likely to noticeably increase battery life. The amount of solar needed for this purpose is easily achievable on a class-B, and the cost is modest.

I agree with Boxter: politicizing a purely pragmatic technology decision is silly.
Agree, for us 300W solar is critical for camping, with reasonably good harvesting our batteries are fully charged at noon. Perhaps B-van definition is changing by its trends of high energy demands, mine is still a camper van.
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Old 09-22-2019, 07:36 AM   #14
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Embassy RV (part of SVO group) ………………….

*Clever moveable-bladder-separated 23 gal fresh/grey tank

………..
Wow, this wouldn’t be my choice. From my perspective risk to benefit ratio is way too high in any RV. If I am wrong than adding a black water to a triple tank should work too.
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Old 09-22-2019, 01:44 PM   #15
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I also wonder about the bladder tank being a good idea, but definitely clever.


Those of of us on private wells have dealt with bladder tanks for decades, and for the most part they are quite reliable, but do have a finite life that is shorter than the tank itself. 20 years is certainly not unheard of.


What I think would be the largest worry in an RV is that while driving there would be a constant sloshing of the contents of both sides of the bladder, so the bladder would constantly be getting flexed back and forth. It could also wind up with all the force on one side of it when one tank side is full and the other empty. 20 gallons of water with inertia from a 60 mph quick stop would be substantial force.


I wonder if there is any decent history on the bladders being used in this way to try to get a feel for durability, perhaps in some other applications.
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Old 09-22-2019, 03:26 PM   #16
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I also wonder about the bladder tank being a good idea, but definitely clever.


Those of of us on private wells have dealt with bladder tanks for decades, and for the most part they are quite reliable, but do have a finite life that is shorter than the tank itself. 20 years is certainly not unheard of.


What I think would be the largest worry in an RV is that while driving there would be a constant sloshing of the contents of both sides of the bladder, so the bladder would constantly be getting flexed back and forth. It could also wind up with all the force on one side of it when one tank side is full and the other empty. 20 gallons of water with inertia from a 60 mph quick stop would be substantial force.


I wonder if there is any decent history on the bladders being used in this way to try to get a feel for durability, perhaps in some other applications.
Good point, dynamic application can reduce the membrane life dramatically. Saving space is the key benefit. I would bet that custom tanks with complex shapes could provide the same benefit at no contamination risk which could end up in a sickness and a consequential lawsuit.
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Old 09-22-2019, 09:45 PM   #17
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I can see what the term implies, but I can't find much of a definition. Embassy says they have between 6 and 8 layers of 'aircraft style' R-5 insulation. They claim it is cumulative, although they don't explicitly state total R-40, so hard to say what the final figure might actually be. They tout their insulation as one of their big selling points. If it is anywhere near R-40, or even half that for that matter, that might force others to up their insulation game. They also say it doesn't absorb moisture or odors.
That is just deceiving by the company. R-value is an expression of insulation material per inch. If you compress it, it doesn’t retain the stated R-value. The best R-value of insulation I found is Aerogel of 10.2 per inch. Boeing uses a polyurethane insulation with a 7-8 R-value per inch. They are closed cell components that trap air in the cells. If you are able to compress them they become nothing but a plastic like board with minimum insulation value in squeezing out the air. Probably the most used and effective insulation in RVs now is Thinsulate with an R-value non-compressed at 5.2 R-value. Thinsulate is preferred over boards because it can be placed in all the nooks and crannies.The ribs of a van are about 1-1/2” to 2” so the absolute theoretical best R-value will be 10-12 at an optimal spot and of course the whole component with metal ribbed thermal link breaks and windows will lower the overall more.

Closed cell is required if it doesn’t absorb moisture. I think the claim of odors is a crock. Odors can retained on surfaces. Embassy RV, IMO, is deceiving or ignorant. Take you pick.
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Old 09-22-2019, 11:10 PM   #18
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Good point, dynamic application can reduce the membrane life dramatically. Saving space is the key benefit. I would bet that custom tanks with complex shapes could provide the same benefit at no contamination risk which could end up in a sickness and a consequential lawsuit.
It looks to me like they are using two separate rubberized water bladders, rectangular in shape, like one pillow on top of the other. Apparently common in the marine world for fuel, water or waste storage on long voyages.

I'm assuming that they stack the grey on top of the fresh, otherwise the weight of the fresh would keep the grey from gravity filling.

The bladders themselves are independent of each other so there can be no cross-contamination even if the grey leaks.

There is no way to put an electronic gauge on them, so the company stuffed a cheap backup camera into the compartment with the screen outside. If you want to know how full your tanks are you use the remote camera to look at how tall they are.

I'd use them in a heartbeat. Put a piece of plywood between them so the top tank has a level surface.
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Old 09-23-2019, 07:02 AM   #19
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It looks to me like they are using two separate rubberized water bladders, rectangular in shape, like one pillow on top of the other. Apparently common in the marine world for fuel, water or waste storage on long voyages.

I'm assuming that they stack the grey on top of the fresh, otherwise the weight of the fresh would keep the grey from gravity filling.

The bladders themselves are independent of each other so there can be no cross-contamination even if the grey leaks.

There is no way to put an electronic gauge on them, so the company stuffed a cheap backup camera into the compartment with the screen outside. If you want to know how full your tanks are you use the remote camera to look at how tall they are.

I'd use them in a heartbeat. Put a piece of plywood between them so the top tank has a level surface.
I agree that 2 separate bladders would be reasonably safe, but still think that that complexity of implementation is too high. A solid containment would still need to take space of 2 full tanks from my perspective so why bladders.

I often fill my fresh water tank at a campsite not a dump station, so with potentially full grey tank I wouldn’t have capacity of full fresh water if tanks volumes are shared to reduce volume. Sorry but it make no sense fro me.
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Old 09-23-2019, 03:00 PM   #20
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*Clever moveable-bladder-separated 23 gal fresh/grey tank
I assume 23 gallons of fresh water and that is woefully inadequate. You would definitely have to coordinate dumping with taking on fresh water and that can be a pain as I don't like to fill at a dump station even though there is usually a separate fresh water fill from the rinse hose. I just don't trust it. It takes away from filling first at another source and then dumping usually when leaving a campground. With a compost toilet (no black water) I guess this is a technique to keep the weight down at the expense of inconvenience. No other Class B I am aware of needs to do this.
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