Do we add 2 additional Solar panels or not

[RMLetstryrving]

We have purchased a used 2018 Pleasureway Lexor TS which is built on 2017 Dodge RAM Promaster 3500 chassis with gas V-6. It has 2x100 AH Lithium Batteries, 95 watt solar panel with GoPower 30AMP PWM solar controller, Progressive Dynamics 45 AMP Lithium Converter, Xantrex Freedom XI 2000 watt inverter.

We are debating whether to add two additional solar panels as when we start travelling we want to "Boondocking" as much of possible.

Will the factory installed configuration be able to support the additional 2 panels or are there some upgrades that need to be in addition.

Any and all comments are welcomed, as we are Newbie's.

[booster]

Originally Posted by RMLetstryrving

We have purchased a used 2018 Pleasureway Lexor TS which is built on 2017 Dodge RAM Promaster 3500 chassis with gas V-6. It has 2x100 AH Lithium Batteries, 95 watt solar panel with GoPower 30AMP PWM solar controller, Progressive Dynamics 45 AMP Lithium Converter, Xantrex Freedom XI 2000 watt inverter.

We are debating whether to add two additional solar panels as when we start travelling we want to "Boondocking" as much of possible.

Will the factory installed configuration be able to support the additional 2 panels or are there some upgrades that need to be in addition.

Any and all comments are welcomed, as we are Newbie's.

\


First I think you need to determine how much power you will be using based on what you will be running like the frig type, cooktop type, water heater type, computers, phones, tv, etc etc.


Then you will need to look at how much you will drive and how often as, unless you have a generator, that will be the only charging you will get unless plugged in, except for the solar.



Depending on the above, you may or may not have enough to do what you want. What frig type you have will be a big part of it, as will if you run an inverter for stuff like microwave, etc.

[@Michael]

In general, you can add solar to almost anything.

If you have room on the roof and can find identical or compatible panels, you might be able to add panels and parallel them with your existing panel using the existing controller.

Otherwise, external, portable panels with another solar controller would be an option. Portables have advantages (you can move them around to keep them pointed at the sun) and disadvantages (storage, inconvenience).

[JLO11111]

Originally Posted by RMLetstryrving

We have purchased a used 2018 Pleasureway Lexor TS which is built on 2017 Dodge RAM Promaster 3500 chassis with gas V-6. It has 2x100 AH Lithium Batteries, 95 watt solar panel with GoPower 30AMP PWM solar controller, Progressive Dynamics 45 AMP Lithium Converter, Xantrex Freedom XI 2000 watt inverter.

We are debating whether to add two additional solar panels as when we start travelling we want to "Boondocking" as much of possible.

Will the factory installed configuration be able to support the additional 2 panels or are there some upgrades that need to be in addition.

Any and all comments are welcomed, as we are Newbie's.

I have a 2017 Lexor. No upgrades are needed. Just add the two panels and you're good to go. The 30 amp controller is plenty big enough to handle three 95W panels and there is room on the roof to put three 95W panels. The GoPower panels are stupidly priced so you can use other 95 or 100W panels and save some money.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by JLO11111

I have a 2017 Lexor. No upgrades are needed. Just add the two panels and you're good to go. The 30 amp controller is plenty big enough to handle three 95W panels and there is room on the roof to put three 95W panels. The GoPower panels are stupidly priced so you can use other 95 or 100W panels and save some money.

Does your Lexor have a DC to DC charger? Newer PW's have one but I've never seen mention of the early lithium units from PW having one.

If I had a 2017 Lexor that didn't have a DC to DC charger the first upgrade I'd do would be to replace the SurePower Separator with a DC to DC charger. That upgrade would prevent the lithium batteries from draining into the lead acid chassis battery and provide controlled charging of the lithium batteries while driving. That should help the alternator out in the long term.

The removal of the SurePower Separator would end the chassis battery being maintained when on solar or when plugged in. If the chassis battery needs to be maintained because of periods of not driving the van an Amp-L-Start lithium version should take care of that. Next, I'd consider replacing the PWM solar controller with a MPPT solar controller.

I did a quick calculation re: replacing the power wasting separator with a DC to DC charger & MPPT controller upgrades and figure it would be the equivalent of a 30%+ array upgrade in addition to the other benefits.

[booster]

Yes, regardless of what you do, getting rid of the Surepower separator is a big deal if you have solar. It will eat most of a 100 watt panel output. DC to DC as Marko said, or even just a solid state separator with low current use and that you can shut off so it doesn't connect on solar only and run the van electronics instead of charging.

[JLO11111]

Originally Posted by markopolo

Does your Lexor have a DC to DC charger? Newer PW's have one but I've never seen mention of the early lithium units from PW having one.

If I had a 2017 Lexor that didn't have a DC to DC charger the first upgrade I'd do would be to replace the SurePower Separator with a DC to DC charger. That upgrade would prevent the lithium batteries from draining into the lead acid chassis battery and provide controlled charging of the lithium batteries while driving. That should help the alternator out in the long term.

The removal of the SurePower Separator would end the chassis battery being maintained when on solar or when plugged in. If the chassis battery needs to be maintained because of periods of not driving the van an Amp-L-Start lithium version should take care of that. Next, I'd consider replacing the PWM solar controller with a MPPT solar controller.

I did a quick calculation re: replacing the power wasting separator with a DC to DC charger & MPPT controller upgrades and figure it would be the equivalent of a 30%+ array upgrade in addition to the other benefits.

I don't agree with any of this. There is an isolator between the chassis and coach batteries. The lithium batteries do NOT drain into the chassis batteries. I don't think PW uses a DC to DC charger in any of their vans, even the 2020s. I think they use a simpler alternator regulator and it works just fine charging at 14.4 volts when driving down the road. The benefits of a MPPT controller on something this small is negligible. With three 95W panels your peak gain with the PWM controller is approx 15 amps in ideal conditions. You may get an extra .3 amps with an MPPT. The simplest and most effective and cheapest way is to add the two 95W panels and call it a day.

[booster]

Originally Posted by JLO11111

I don't agree with any of this. There is an isolator between the chassis and coach batteries. The lithium batteries do NOT drain into the chassis batteries. I don't think PW uses a DC to DC charger in any of their vans, even the 2020s. I think they use a simpler alternator regulator and it works just fine charging at 14.4 volts when driving down the road. The benefits of a MPPT controller on something this small is negligible. With three 95W panels your peak gain with the PWM controller is approx 15 amps in ideal conditions. You may get an extra .3 amps with an MPPT. The simplest and most effective and cheapest way is to add the two 95W panels and call it a day.

We know from past posters that the lithium batteries will have a high enough voltage to trip the Surepower separator at IIRC 13.2v, and then supply 1.4 amps just to run the separator plus whatever the starting battery takes.


Do you know how many amps the alternator is providing driving? Lithium will often accept more the alternator really should be putting out over long periods. The DC to DC charger limits the charge rate and will make the alternator last longer, plus keep the batteries from being held at 14.4v when full, which is not a good thing to do, it appears.


If you are talking having 21.7v panel maxes you would gain approximately the % of energy from charge voltage of 14.7(?) to the 21.7v if the panel is running at max. If running at MPP of 17.1 or so it would be the difference to that voltage. It can be insignificant if the volt is held down by loads or battery acceptance and if the voltage below charge voltage the PWM may actually be more efficient, otherwise the MPPT wins by a decent amount.


As I said right off the bat here, it is very premature to be getting statements of what to do, when none of know what he is looking to do with the power, and what equipment he has to run, or his camping style. One size of solution doesn't fit all in stuff like this. Heck, if he is a big power user, the solar may not even be a factor at 300 watts or 100 watts.

[JLO11111]

To the OP, simply mount the two panels on the roof and connect the wires serially. Done. Your peak input amps will go from 5 amps with the single panel you have now to 15 amps. During summer and some spring/fall months, this will run everything in your van, including multiple microwave runs, for 4-5 days, if not weeks, without the need to plug in or run your generator (no A/C of course). I have 2 panels and this has been my experience. During winter, when the sun is low, you should still be able to get 3-4 days without needing to plug in. This assumes you're getting decent sun. I never got around to throwing the third panel on my Lexor, but I think you'll be quite happy with the results.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by JLO11111

I don't agree with any of this. There is an isolator between the chassis and coach batteries..........

PW used a Separator (solenoid) not typical Diode Isolator according to the 2017 PW owner manual. Maybe your PW is different.

Originally Posted by JLO11111

....... The lithium batteries do NOT drain into the chassis batteries.........

The 1314-200 separator -> http://www.cooperindustries.com/cont...ST_180126a.pdf <- connects chassis battery to the house batteries when the chassis battery sees 13.2V. The disconnect occurs when the chassis battery falls to 12.8V. The lithium batteries higher nominal voltage holds the solenoid closed until they drop to 12.8V which is nearly depleted for lithium.

If your van has a 1314-200 then do us a favor and measure the coil current and report back. There are varying estimates on forums, from .5A to 2A. I used 1A for my quick calculations. Basically, it's a part intended for lead acid chassis & house batteries. Check on various forums to see discussions about the current used to power the coil in the solenoid.
http://forums.trailerlife.com/index....1.cfm#23612561

https://www.sportsmobileforum.com/fo...tml#post193759

If it takes 1 amp to hold that coiled closed that's like 20% of your solar output wasted for the GP 95W panel on a PWM controller.

Originally Posted by JLO11111

.......I don't think PW uses a DC to DC charger in any of their vans, even the 2020s. I think they use a simpler alternator regulator and it works just fine charging at 14.4 volts when driving down the road........

Mastervolt DC/DC in the newer/newest PW's. -> https://www.google.com/search?&q=mas...t+pleasure+way

The bigger issue with a single alternator van charging lithium batteries is amperage and to a lesser extent voltage unless there's the potential of overvoltage. The van's alternator will likely be near max output if the the lithium batteries are low. And they'll probably be low often if stored under cover because of the separator. A DC/DC charger solves both the voltage profile and the amperage into the lithiums.

Originally Posted by JLO11111

......The benefits of a MPPT controller on something this small is negligible. With three 95W panels your peak gain with the PWM controller is approx 15 amps in ideal conditions. You may get an extra .3 amps with an MPPT. The simplest and most effective and cheapest way is to add the two 95W panels and call it a day.

I'd guess that you've underestimated the MPPT gain by a multiple of almost 8 for 3 panels........

1 x GP 95W on PWM
5.5A x 14.4V = 79 watts possible

1 x GP 95W on MPPT
5.5A x 17.27V = 95W x 95% = 90 watts possible

3 x GP 95W on PWM
5.5A x 14.4V x 3 = 238 watts possible

3 x GP 95W on MPPT
5.5A x 17.27V x 3 = 285 x 95% = 271 watts possible

You might as well fix the not so great stuff first IMO.

[booster]

Originally Posted by JLO11111

To the OP, simply mount the two panels on the roof and connect the wires serially. Done. Your peak input amps will go from 5 amps with the single panel you have now to 15 amps. During summer and some spring/fall months, this will run everything in your van, including multiple microwave runs, for 4-5 days, if not weeks, without the need to plug in or run your generator (no A/C of course). I have 2 panels and this has been my experience. During winter, when the sun is low, you should still be able to get 3-4 days without needing to plug in. This assumes you're getting decent sun. I never got around to throwing the third panel on my Lexor, but I think you'll be quite happy with the results.

Repeating what you said without any more information doesn't really do anybody any good, as you have no idea how the van will be used or what all equipment he has. Marko has reiterated lots of good information about separators and B to B chargers.


I will repeat what I have said twice before, and certainly still believe it is the necessary course of action for the OP.

As I said right off the bat here, it is very premature to be getting statements of what to do, when none of know what he is looking to do with the power, and what equipment he has to run, or his camping style. One size of solution doesn't fit all in stuff like this. Heck, if he is a big power user, the solar may not even be a factor at 300 watts or 100 watts.

[JLO11111]

Repeating what you said without owning a Lexor doesn't really help anybody.

To the OP, get the panels, these guys want you to replace every component in your van without knowing how it performs.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by JLO11111

To the OP, simply mount the two panels on the roof and connect the wires serially. Done. Your peak input amps will go from 5 amps with the single panel you have now to 15 amps. During summer and some spring/fall months, this will run everything in your van, including multiple microwave runs, for 4-5 days, if not weeks, without the need to plug in or run your generator (no A/C of course). I have 2 panels and this has been my experience. During winter, when the sun is low, you should still be able to get 3-4 days without needing to plug in. This assumes you're getting decent sun. I never got around to throwing the third panel on my Lexor, but I think you'll be quite happy with the results.

Connecting 3 panels in series will likely exceed maximum 28V input voltage to PWM controller. https://gpelectric.com/products/30-a...ar-controller/

[booster]

Originally Posted by JLO11111

Repeating what you said without owning a Lexor doesn't really help anybody.

To the OP, get the panels, these guys want you to replace every component in your van without knowing how it performs.

Not even close. What I want is to help him only spend money on what he actually needs, and will give him the best system based on his use pattern and budget.


How well you think your system works for you is essentially irrelevant if he has different components and different camping style.

[JLO11111]

He asked about adding panels, not about alternator charging. Adding panels triples the solar input, an MPPT controller does not.

And yes, I meant to say parallel, not serial...

[booster]

Originally Posted by JLO11111

He asked about adding panels, not about alternator charging. Adding panels triples the solar input, an MPPT controller does not.

And yes, I meant to say parallel, not serial...

He said they were thinking about it and wanted to know if the other systems would also need changing or could handle it, and also asked for any other comments of how to proceed. None of that can be known withot more information, that was asked for to be able to give a rational answer. Alternators, separators, alternator controls are all parts that can greatly affect how the solar performs and if more would do any good in that particular application.



Keeping the the Surepower, if he has one, will use up nearly all the power he has now, and 30% of 3 panels. Would you recommend he put on an entire extra panel rather than saving the wasted power? Of course you can't say because you don't know if he has one or not.


We can disagree on this, let the OP decide what he wants to do. We will still be here to help him get what works best for him, in the most cost effective way, if he wants the help.

[JLO11111]

I own a Lexor that is identical to his except for the fireflly controllers and tankless Truma they added in 18. I full time in it so I know exactly how it performs under all conditions. There is no mythical 30% loss. The Lexor is designed to come with up to 3 solar panels. It's cheap and easy to add a few panels. They use the same controller no matter how many panels you order.

[SteveJ]

A quick note. I'm using remote portable panels with a pwm temperature compensating(a desirable thing) controller mounted near the converter/charger.

I like the portable idea as it makes the choice of camp site a lot more flexible and I don't have to park in the sun.

[markopolo]

I did see a post from a Lexor owner that leads me to wonder if there's an 80A breaker on the wire from the separator to the lithium batteries and that's the amperage limiting device.

It would be useful to know if there is an 80A breaker on that wire. Maybe JLO11111 or another Lexor owner could let us know.

[JLO11111]

Sorry, don't have the van with me at the moment and I never really looked into what's between the separator and batteries. I do know that the voltage is regulated at a max of 14.4V when driving down the road. The OP has a 2018 which came with a victron battery monitor. He should be able to see exactly what's going on.