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Old 11-21-2019, 06:26 PM   #1
Bud
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Default Lead is Dead with a B RV?

Given Mr rowiebowie's post:

"Black Friday Sale at Renogy. Everything 20% off.

I just priced their 100Ah lithium battery (the ones I bought this Summer, not their latest version). It's on sale for $799.00, but when you put in sale code BFSOLAR20 at checkout:

The price is $639.99 with free shipping! Almost $100 less than I paid. Arrrgh!"



Why would any but the Least expensive B manufacturer offer a lead battery at this price point? Wouldn't one want lithium in their brochure/website?

And that is today, I'm no futurists and my guesses are often awful, but tomorrow? It seems that if you are going to need more than one agm, lead is dead.

Bud
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Old 11-21-2019, 06:30 PM   #2
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That’s still over $6 per amp hour. The real deals are had under $3 per Ah.
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Old 11-21-2019, 06:50 PM   #3
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Given Mr rowiebowie's post:

"Black Friday Sale at Renogy. Everything 20% off.

I just priced their 100Ah lithium battery (the ones I bought this Summer, not their latest version). It's on sale for $799.00, but when you put in sale code BFSOLAR20 at checkout:

The price is $639.99 with free shipping! Almost $100 less than I paid. Arrrgh!"



Why would any but the Least expensive B manufacturer offer a lead battery at this price point? Wouldn't one want lithium in their brochure/website?

And that is today, I'm no futurists and my guesses are often awful, but tomorrow? It seems that if you are going to need more than one agm, lead is dead.

Bud

I guess I would agree on the desire to have it in the literature, but also think that there is also enough question for some people, and maybe manufacturers also, about reliability and temp issues, a lot caused by the Roadtrek problems. To do a decent factory install of lithium takes more than just battery cost difference, if you assume they actually want to do a decent install which is always a question I think, vs whatever will sell and make money. Chargers, heaters, controls, etc all can be different. The recently posted video may or may not bring up a lot issues as at this point it certainly isn't confirmed facts for RV chemistry batteries. If you really get the kind of reductions of life claimed in the video, a lot of the benefit balance shifts as we all see those kinds of conditions regularly, I think.



Of course there are many that wouldn't worry about those things and trust it all will be good, but we all see what happened with Roadtrek systems.


I think there will be place for AGMs for quite a while yet, probably until the life of lithium is confirmed, the cost gets comparable, and the temp concerns get resolved by new technology. Having to put them inside the van, using space, and not charging under freezing are probably giving some hesitation.



A lot of us have use profiles that make the charging times and profiles for AGM not an issue, and the cold and storage issues and ability to have them outside the van big pluses, so it gets to be pretty individually judged, I think.
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Old 11-21-2019, 07:39 PM   #4
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"I guess I would agree on the desire to have it in the literature, but also think that there is also enough question for some people, and maybe manufacturers also, about reliability and temp issues............"

I think that is about over. Pleasure-Way which is a Conservative (absorption refer, etc.) B manufacturer has lithium Only since 2016, quite awhile.

", a lot caused by the Roadtrek problems."

Starting to seem like a distant memory. Oh, except for the folks f'ed by them and their ambassadors. Starting to fume here.

"I think there will be place for AGMs for quite a while yet, probably until the life of lithium is confirmed, the cost gets comparable, and the temp concerns get resolved by new technology."

I posted because 'cost' is comparable. The cost/benefit analysis seems to favor lithium for most applications (b's) now.

I did misspeak about needing more than one agm, I meant replacing one.

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Old 11-21-2019, 08:31 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bud View Post
"I guess I would agree on the desire to have it in the literature, but also think that there is also enough question for some people, and maybe manufacturers also, about reliability and temp issues............"

I think that is about over. Pleasure-Way which is a Conservative (absorption refer, etc.) B manufacturer has lithium Only since 2016, quite awhile.

", a lot caused by the Roadtrek problems."

Starting to seem like a distant memory. Oh, except for the folks f'ed by them and their ambassadors. Starting to fume here.

"I think there will be place for AGMs for quite a while yet, probably until the life of lithium is confirmed, the cost gets comparable, and the temp concerns get resolved by new technology."

I posted because 'cost' is comparable. The cost/benefit analysis seems to favor lithium for most applications (b's) now.

I did misspeak about needing more than one agm, I meant replacing one.

Bud

We saw the early Pleasure-way install in a Chevy at the RV show back then, maybe even a year or two earlier as it was right around the time we were selling our generator as I remember. They had just dropped in two lithium batteries without other charges to systems back then. They were that way for a while and now have started to upgrade their knowledge, I think, with the specific cold weather requirements, etc. I have never heard how much trouble or failures they had, but there sales are so low that probably isn't surprising. I think similar trends may happen with other brands getting into lithium, as Winnebago has done in moving quickly to offer the advanced systems.


Cost vs life is going to be the defining thing, I think, as long as the temp, or other stuff doesn't get in the way. Even at today's prices, lithium can be competitive if you keep the RV long enough, but that is all based on the actual long term life in the real world, which really isn't known you as it takes a long time to get in the multi-thousands of cycles to know.



We are seeing so many articles from so many different places it is very hard to tell which way actuality is trending. It could be showing positive confirmation of the specs, or could be pointing to more issues than were originally known. Time will tell, I guess.
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Old 11-21-2019, 11:10 PM   #6
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………………………………………..
I think there will be place for AGMs for quite a while yet, probably until the life of lithium is confirmed, the cost gets comparable, and the temp concerns get resolved by new technology. Having to put them inside the van, using space, and not charging under freezing are probably giving some hesitation.
A lot of us have use profiles that make the charging times and profiles for AGM not an issue, and the cold and storage issues and ability to have them outside the van big pluses, so it gets to be pretty individually judged, I think.
I agree, for me they are not dead. My 2 Full River batteries are 6 years old and work great. Soon or later I will be in need to replace them and most likely will go with direct replacement of Full River but definitely with AGM. It will be one trip to a local Full River dealer and 15 minutes later new batteries will be in. No headache.

Getting lithium batteries would cause me a headache of reprograming to to be determined custom profiles for Magnum Inverter, Morningstar Solar charge controller, or figuring out how to charge them using the alternator. And this headache would be topped with another one of how to start and stop charging. Fortunately, I would not likely be exposed to low temperature issues in Oregon.

I am very likely not alone having batteries charging infrastructure tuned for flooded or AGM batteries. Practically all RVs in North America use lead batteries. B-class RVs insane prices allow for lithium but for most of RVs lithium will be difficult to justify. I can’t see Lithium benefits justifying my potential headaches.

However, if I build or buy anther B-class van, not likely, I would consider getting Lithium batteries if charging equipment is fully developed for mass market, not just for the few who can’t enjoy camping without Lithium.
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Old 11-22-2019, 12:23 AM   #7
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Top AGMs are still half the price. They are easy and dependable. The lithiums are way too labor intensive. temperature issues, long term dependability still not clear. I doubt that I will ever switch. AGMs do everything I need.
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Old 11-22-2019, 03:44 PM   #8
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GeorgeRa, mumkin, what you have written makes sense.

I'm saying that lithium pricing has now reached the point where some More B manufacturers will actually Stop offering lead acid as an alternative, not just Pleasure-Way. That is my guess. I would place a bet if the right offer were made. Any offers? Thanks.

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Old 11-22-2019, 04:11 PM   #9
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GeorgeRa, mumkin, what you have written makes sense.

I'm saying that lithium pricing has now reached the point where some More B manufacturers will actually Stop offering lead acid as an alternative, not just Pleasure-Way. That is my guess. I would place a bet if the right offer were made. Any offers? Thanks.

Bud

I think you are correct on that. I also think that is may not be the best option for some unknown percent of buyers, but we know from past experience is you get what is offered, not necessarily your first choice is, or if it actually best for your application.
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Old 11-22-2019, 04:22 PM   #10
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I think you are correct on that. I also think that is may not be the best option for some unknown percent of buyers, but we know from past experience is you get what is offered, not necessarily your first choice is, or if it actually best for your application.
And I agree with another example being Solar.
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