Mike Wendlends lithium batteries

[markopolo]

Alde propane heat in this one.

Mike & Campskunk will probably slowly trickle out the info on their new units.

[markopolo]

Looks like the AC distribution panel is ceiling mounted. Appears to be above the drivers seat.

Looks like a PD5500 Series AC Distribution Panel: http://www.progressivedyn.com/pd5500_2.html
Coupled with a PD6000 Series DC Distribution Panel : http://www.progressivedyn.com/pd6000_2.html

Video:

The Progressive Dynamics distribution panels appear around the 5:39 min/sec mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7MfCbD9O79M

[youtube:2izfagce]7MfCbD9O79M[/youtube:2izfagce]

Also of interest is something that could be a converter / charger in the cupboard below the sink. The best images of that start around 2:38 min/sec mark.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by bobojay

Humm...no mention of the ultra mega smoke & mirrors battery system. WHY! would you have all that electric and the special diesel heating system and have the propane too? Does it not have the Webasto as their previous one did?
New powered step that'll be a maintenance nightmare I see. V6 or 4 I wonder.....

i'm pretty sure the powerstep is mercedes-it's an option for sprinter people carriers(airports/hotels/etx). as marko says the CS uses the Alde system which is radiant heat/warm floor/hot water. since you need propane for the alde you can get either the propane stove or induction cooktop. makes more sense to me to get the propane stove and use portable induction cooktop.
as far as all that electricity-it is overkill-however this lithium system is being tested.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Just read an interesting post by bikerbill ...........

The post is on this forum also.
Let's keep this topic about Mike W's new RT CS with lithium batteries.

[markopolo]

Originally Posted by bikerbill

Minor issues with Mike Wendland's story. Its not an additional 18" but 15.6 or call it 16" longer in the extended version and the extended version is only rated to tow 5000# not 7000#. I went to the Mercedes specs for Sprinter to get the info. Mike is used to his normal length which was capable of 7000# ............

Good catch Bill. I deleted the post though but quoted the relevant bit.

[markopolo]

If another forum or member on another forum bugs you now then maybe don't visit as often anymore or take what you read with grain of salt.

I really don't want to see a "pile in" complaining about what is going on at some other site. Think about the other forum members here that enjoy this site and lets keep it informative and fun here.

[wincrasher]

Many people prefer to cook on gas. I know I do. So it's not crazy to have that be their only LP appliance with a small tank.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mlts22]

For energy/volume, LP gas, diesel, and gasoline have a lot more bang for the gallon than batteries do. I do like the idea of a very large battery bank, but a stove, microwave, and other items are major energy users. It might be that making a 100% electric rig not might be as good as it seems.

For a Sprinter chassis, why not have diesel appliances? A Webasto X100 stove would almost certainly be a better choice than an electric stove because all combustion is exhausted to the outside. Similar with a diesel water heater/furnace. Take an Truma Combi D6 E. It heats up water and works as a furnace, all from the diesel fuel tank, and on shore power, will use electric without issue.

I understand the allure of an all electric vehicle without LP gas, but a vehicle with a diesel stove, water heater, and furnace would be 100% functionally identical in every way. In fact, the only two items that would really need a beefy electrical system would be the A/C and microwave. Since diesel fuel has so much energy per unit of volume, the appliances use very little for their functioning, and can easily run days on the average 24 gallon Sprinter fuel tank. If one is boondocking for a very long time, carrying a couple diesel fuel cans can't hurt.

It would be interesting to compare Mike Wendland's all electric vehicle to a custom Sportsmobile Sprinter upfit that uses the Webasto X100 stove, the Truma D6 furnace/water heater, (since I live in Texas), a PowerTech 3000 watt diesel generator stuffed between the rear pumpkin and the tow hitch, and just for grins, a high amperage alternator coupled with a high amperage charge controller, so all the appliances can run with the generator off, but the Sprinter's engine on. Functionally, I'd say they would be identical, unless the user of the van decided to just park and use FHU for several months straight which would cause the appliances to eventually empty the diesel tank.

[Davydd]

Wendland's new CS is not all electric. He has propane and a propane stove top.

As for all electric, I will soon have it and will know more soon. None of you have ever had an 800ah battery bank to be able to judge how functional it is. However, there has now been one Advanced RV delivered with 800 ah and the occupants just completed a week long dry camp stay in Cleveland and trip home in mostly below freezing temperatures. I do know an electric induction cooktop will outperform gas for heat control. It is nothing like a regular electric cooktop. My heat and hot water will be from an Espar diesel powered (and/or electric shore powered) heat exchanger. There is no need for an Onan or Powertech generator with a second engine alternator that I can see.

As for air conditioning I believe the Wendland Roadtrek CS is designed for 24/7 use with its battery bank and solar without a noisy generator. What you want or should want to know is whether his inside air conditioner is quieter than the standard rooftop air conditioner.

I will never have a need for boondocking air conditioning in camp. That I can guarantee. However, I will have about a 5-7 hour air conditioning reserve on electric. I consider being cooped up in a Class B with the air conditioner running especially with a generator to be self-flagellation pure torture. At least if I did, I would not have a double dose of noise or worry about carbon monoxide. Having the full screen at the sliding door and back doors does wonders in a campground not only for bug control but keeping your B from overheating. I think it is shortsighted and silly most B converters haven't figured that out.

Advanced RV is not going to drive everyone into the future since they have no plans to go beyond personal customer satisfaction boutique production, but the highest volume producer, Roadtrek, is going to drag the rest kicking and screaming into the fold. Winnebago, Airstream, LTV, Coach House and Pleasure-way still expect you to obediently drive to a campground and plug in.

[markopolo]

Plugging in and hookups are a choice not a requirement. The most time we'd spend with no hookups was one week at a National Park. 2 RV type batteries & propane easily allowed for that in the mild west coast climate. Mid-week we'd drive to the campground dump station to empty tanks. Some years we'd head to town on that same day for a treat or sightseeing. We did that for a few years. It was a choice to only stay a week. No generator in that RV either.

For us, three day self sufficiency in a campervan is probably all we'd need and be willing to pay for. Other people will want less or more.

[Davydd]

Plugging and hookups are indeed a choice not a requirement, but our use of our B will be the same in use and function regardless of choice and location. That was a goal.

[markopolo]

20,000wh lifepo4 would fit in a B (if my math is right!)

Take these batteries http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo4-pri ... d-dgr.aspx

32 of them connected in parallel would equal 20,480wh at 3.2v (they're advertised as 200ah or 640wh at 3.2v)

32 of them in an 8 battery x 4 battery configuration could measure approx 22"x 18" for example. Almost 20" high. Almost $12,000 for the batteries with no management system (today's price). + shipping

They would weigh in at about 400 lbs.

It takes 4 of those batteries in series to make a 12.8 volt 200ah battery with watt hours at 2560wh. You'd have 8 of the 200ah 4-packs in parallel so 8 x 200ah = 1600ah. 12.8v x 1600ah = 20,480wh

I'm not sure about the 20" height though - might have to go with lesser ah (shorter) but more batteries.

[Davydd]

Marko,

Previously in this thread I posted this. Your 20" tall theory will not fit anywhere and the batteries look as if they need to be in trays attached under the van. Unlike lead acid they do not need to be tended to periodically so once installed you may never see them again. If you needed to get at them you would have to go up on a lift and drop them. Since Roadtrek says they are proprietary and sealed it probably means only their dealers will do this.

Originally Posted by Davydd

Going by the video of the battery bank they focused on very briefly and searching the web to find a battery that looked similar the closest I could come up with was this one - a LiFePO4 Prismatic cell CALB 3.2v - 180ah battery. Visually the physical size is about right. Whether it is this specific one is a little bit immaterial. Sizes, weight and arrangements would ultimately be similar.

LiFePO4 Prismatic cell CALB 3.2v - 180ah battery

They show them in metal trays in banks of 8 cells. They could be assembled in blocks of 4 to get 12v. If my calculations are right each tray would be 360ah worth of batteries or two 180ah 12v blocks in a tray. Gerry said he saw 5 trays being lifted in place. That would equate to 1,800ah total. That would be 21,600 watt-hours? Hammill did say the number was rounded off. It seems plausible. The metal trays could be 8" x 24" each. The number of cells would be 40 total at a retail price of $226 equaling $9,040. This is just a guess from the video visual evidence and statements made.

But it is all "proprietary and sealed" so we may never know. But from this it appears plausible and could fit under the floor and weigh under 500 lbs. That is closely equivalent to about 800ah worth of AGM batteries in weight. So, it appears to be doable as stated by Roadtrek. Add solar contribution and maybe something like a 12v 85ah draw air conditioner and you can get your theoretical 24/7 air conditioning with full sun and a few hours of re-charge on the second alternator. My 160 mile per day driving history average would support it possibly without ever idling. The thing is, why? I don't use air conditioning hardly at all. Campskunk is running around claiming he doesn't either. I have had to reach to justify the 800ah I am installing in my B considering all plausible use scenarios. This leads me to believe this is all for demonstration of the possible but will it ever go into production?

[markopolo]

I did that math for nothing Good exercise though as I'm not used to figuring out watt hours.

Those are a better height. Better price too.

[wincrasher]

You have to look no further than the expedition class of vehicles to see all diesel setup - I've toyed with the idea of getting a Tiger Siberian. You can go all diesel furnace, water heater, generator, cooktop, etc. You have options to go with big solar and huge battery bank. Of course there is room for all that when you are building on an F550 chassis.

I think if you are doing that kind of adventuring - far, far off grid, then you need redundancies and multiple powering methods. That just makes for good sense. For those of us that don't venture too far off the highway, it's not that big a deal to commit to an all electric, or partial system (gas/electric) or all diesel.

I have my doubts about a diesel cooktop though. I think it can get smelly if not functioning properly. They also work differently than most people are accustomed.

I still think the future for powering B class RV's will be the fuel cell. It solves a lot of problems and having plenty of amp hrs would not be an issue. Imagine 50A service available, with no noise, in a small box that weighs less than 100 lbs. No charging systems, batteries or inverters to deal with.

[Davydd]

Back to Wendland's RV.

I took the liberty to arrange the Prismatic 3.2v 180ah battery cells that I guessed for Wendland's RV that could deliver 1,800ah and I compared it to what I think I will be getting in GBS 3.2v 100ah battery cells to deliver 800ah. For comparison an Onan generator is Length 22, width 16.3 in, height 12.8 in. Neither battery is as high as an Onan generator.

[wincrasher]

Wow, Mike has a lot of solar!

[youtube:2oy5miin]_Jx17JDxvxs[/youtube:2oy5miin]

[markopolo]

I wonder if lithium setup is split into 24v and 12v?

I think the E-trek had a 24v panel (maybe an E-trek owner could confirm). The front panel on Mike's rig looks similar to the E-trek. The four panels in the rear look different. Must be a reason for the mix of panels.

You can see the need for real world testing as RT will want to get the right mix of solar wattage and batteries for typical campervan use.

[obgraham]

Originally Posted by markopolo

I think the E-trek had a 24v panel (maybe an E-trek owner could confirm).

Indeed it does. The solar is 24v. (It's one of the few things in the ETrek that is easily determined!)

[bobojay]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Back to Wendland's RV.

I took the liberty to arrange the Prismatic 3.2v 180ah battery cells that I guessed for Wendland's RV that could deliver 1,800ah and I compared it to what I think I will be getting in GBS 3.2v 100ah battery cells to deliver 800ah. For comparison an Onan generator is Length 22, width 16.3 in, height 12.8 in. Neither battery is as high as an Onan generator.

If DavyDD's illustration is correct, that's an awful big sheet metal cutout from the body on the RT in a unibody van.....