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Old 04-30-2018, 01:49 AM   #1
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Default Mr. Jim Hammill attacks again

There have been advancements in the Hymer Aktiv's plumbing and electrical safety campaign. Rather than listen and correct, Mr. Hammill has attacked again. The plumbing code violation depiction is now clearer and might be interesting to us electrical heads. The new electrical developments are in the conclusion section after Mr. Hammill's attack email.
https://sites.google.com/view/shoot-...ect?authuser=2
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Old 04-30-2018, 02:55 AM   #2
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.

Why is he going into all that song and dance?

All he has to do is to produce a document from Truma,
or a statement from Truma,
to the effect that the unit is internally pressure and temperature protected.

This started as a simple inquiry from a customer. Why is he withholding the information? What is he afraid of?


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Old 04-30-2018, 03:02 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by BBQ View Post
.

Why is he going into all that song and dance?

All he has to do is to produce a document from Truma,
or a statement from Truma,
to the effect that the unit is internally pressure and temperature protected.

This is a simple inquiry from a customer. Why is he withholding the information? What is he afraid of?


Yep, I think what it would all possibly show is that there is some play on words going on with it. He said it was redundant protection for temp and pressure, but he did not say it was a pressure and temperature relief valve like is in the wrong place in the pic. Electronic/mechanical sensors would be called redundant if there were two of them monitoring internally, so he is not technically lying, but a system such as that would not meet the code that is quoted which is for a T&P relief valve.

IMO, it would be much better to put all the facts and documents out there for the customers. If there is no hazard or code violations, the customers are going to be glad, relieved, and will also be quiet.
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Old 04-30-2018, 03:07 AM   #4
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I am struggling in understanding the picture, the output from the pressure relief valve goes into the wood enclosure holding a valve, is this valve blocking the relief. If yes would this be a 3-way valve?, why?

You have a nice pictures but a simple plumbing diagram would be better to convey a technical message, at least for me.
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:50 AM   #5
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Jim Hammill posted this on the Roadtreking Facebook group...

Hello Folks,

I find it difficult to make posts like these, but there is a significant issue being caused by a man on another site named Mr Sam Carswell.

He is a retired engineer as I understand it, from the aerospace industry. Iím not aware of any qualifications.

He has been studying the fire codes around RVs and feels his Truma Combi water heater has been unsafely installed by us. He informed me of this a couple months ago.

We had already been aware of the concern, and we had contacted Truma, who had looked at our installation and found it to be safe, as they have internal controls that shut off heating if temperature and pressure rise past a safe threshold.

Mr Carswell is a Hymer Aktkv Owner. He has been contacting my staff and demanding meetings with myself constantly since he purchased. He writes emails all the time to everybody. He writes to consumers, dealers, and us.

I have offered to buy his unit back many times. Just in order to eliminate the problem for us, and for him. He wonít accept that, saying he loves his unit.

The regulatory authority (RVIA) has reviewed his complaint about the Truma install, and after investigation with Truma has given us a written response saying it is not a safety issue.

I have informed Mr Carswell of this, and he refuses to back off, continuing to libel us on his blog and in correspondence to others.

I am left with no choice but to tell the story publicly, and to explain why I have to take legal action against Mr Carswell. He is wrong, and it is unfortunate he just wonít stop. Sometimes, people can take far too much implied knowledge too far.

My goal is to ensure the truth is told.

We have to trust Truma, the RVIA, and the laboratory that tested the appliance. There have been no issues with safety whatsoever with this installation on ANY units anywhere. I say that again. There are no safety issues at all. There will be none.

I apologize, but the word has to get out. Sometimes we have to stand up for ourselves.

Jim Hammill
President and CEO
Erwin Hymer Group of North America
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Old 04-30-2018, 05:27 AM   #6
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Default Mr. Hammill promises legal action

Thanks for forwarding Mr. Hammill's latest threats since not everyone has access to RoadTrek's no drama websites. People can also contact me at hymer.whistle.blower@gmail.com
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:29 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmchugh View Post
Jim Hammill posted this on the Roadtreking Facebook group...

Hello Folks,

I find it difficult to make posts like these, but there is a significant issue being caused by a man on another site named Mr Sam Carswell.

He is a retired engineer as I understand it, from the aerospace industry. Iím not aware of any qualifications.

He has been studying the fire codes around RVs and feels his Truma Combi water heater has been unsafely installed by us. He informed me of this a couple months ago.

We had already been aware of the concern, and we had contacted Truma, who had looked at our installation and found it to be safe, as they have internal controls that shut off heating if temperature and pressure rise past a safe threshold.

Mr Carswell is a Hymer Aktkv Owner. He has been contacting my staff and demanding meetings with myself constantly since he purchased. He writes emails all the time to everybody. He writes to consumers, dealers, and us.

I have offered to buy his unit back many times. Just in order to eliminate the problem for us, and for him. He wonít accept that, saying he loves his unit.

The regulatory authority (RVIA) has reviewed his complaint about the Truma install, and after investigation with Truma has given us a written response saying it is not a safety issue.

I have informed Mr Carswell of this, and he refuses to back off, continuing to libel us on his blog and in correspondence to others.

I am left with no choice but to tell the story publicly, and to explain why I have to take legal action against Mr Carswell. He is wrong, and it is unfortunate he just wonít stop. Sometimes, people can take far too much implied knowledge too far.

My goal is to ensure the truth is told.

We have to trust Truma, the RVIA, and the laboratory that tested the appliance. There have been no issues with safety whatsoever with this installation on ANY units anywhere. I say that again. There are no safety issues at all. There will be none.

I apologize, but the word has to get out. Sometimes we have to stand up for ourselves.

Jim Hammill
President and CEO
Erwin Hymer Group of North America
It seems as a waltz around the issue instead of a pinpointed technical reply. A retired engineer, so what. I love my DIY.

In my past I often interacted with our German division, strait shooters, good listeners and business sharp. Hymer is different, unfortunately.
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Old 04-30-2018, 07:36 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmchugh View Post
Jim Hammill posted this on the Roadtreking Facebook group...

Hello Folks,

I find it difficult to make posts like these, but there is a significant issue being caused by a man on another site named Mr Sam Carswell.

He is a retired engineer as I understand it, from the aerospace industry. Iím not aware of any qualifications.

He has been studying the fire codes around RVs and feels his Truma Combi water heater has been unsafely installed by us. He informed me of this a couple months ago.

We had already been aware of the concern, and we had contacted Truma, who had looked at our installation and found it to be safe, as they have internal controls that shut off heating if temperature and pressure rise past a safe threshold.

Mr Carswell is a Hymer Aktkv Owner. He has been contacting my staff and demanding meetings with myself constantly since he purchased. He writes emails all the time to everybody. He writes to consumers, dealers, and us.

I have offered to buy his unit back many times. Just in order to eliminate the problem for us, and for him. He wonít accept that, saying he loves his unit.

The regulatory authority (RVIA) has reviewed his complaint about the Truma install, and after investigation with Truma has given us a written response saying it is not a safety issue.

I have informed Mr Carswell of this, and he refuses to back off, continuing to libel us on his blog and in correspondence to others.

I am left with no choice but to tell the story publicly, and to explain why I have to take legal action against Mr Carswell. He is wrong, and it is unfortunate he just wonít stop. Sometimes, people can take far too much implied knowledge too far.

My goal is to ensure the truth is told.

We have to trust Truma, the RVIA, and the laboratory that tested the appliance. There have been no issues with safety whatsoever with this installation on ANY units anywhere. I say that again. There are no safety issues at all. There will be none.

I apologize, but the word has to get out. Sometimes we have to stand up for ourselves.

Jim Hammill
President and CEO
Erwin Hymer Group of North America
"I have offered to buy his unit back many times. Just in order to eliminate the problem for us, and for him. He wonít accept that, saying he loves his unit."

IMO there is no way any customer can legally require Roadtrek to make the changes they consider necessary as desirable as they may be. In the instant case, I think the maximum practical recourse is to act on RT's willingness to take back the coach.for a full refund. Life is too short. Sometimes it's best to just make the point, alert others that may be affected (both of which have been done), and take the refund and run.
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Old 04-30-2018, 01:03 PM   #9
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.

He is BS'ing again.

RVIA is NOT a regulatory authority.

RVIA is a voluntary industry trade association.
It has no legal authority whatsoever.
ie. the boss is asking the little boys club to review itself.
No bad thing is going to come out of it.
I bet you no study has been done by them. It is only a rubber stamp.
If they have done any real review, JH would have published their formal report instead of doing this song and dance.

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Old 04-30-2018, 03:48 PM   #10
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Truma Combi installations instructions:

https://www.truma.com/web/downloadce...tion-us-en.pdf



They show with and without bypass plumbing with relief valve to the unit side of all valves, but don't specifically address saying no valves allowed, in the instructions. They do specifically state that the relief valve is required.
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Old 04-30-2018, 03:56 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booster View Post
Truma Combi installations instructions:

http://https://www.truma.com/web/dow...tion-us-en.pdf

They show with and without bypass plumbing with relief valve to the unit side of all valves, but don't specifically address saying no valves allowed, in the instructions. They do specifically state that the relief valve is required.
Bad URL, this one works...

https://www.truma.com/web/downloadce...tion-us-en.pdf
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:02 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by GeorgeRa View Post
I am struggling in understanding the picture, the output from the pressure relief valve goes into the wood enclosure holding a valve, is this valve blocking the relief. If yes would this be a 3-way valve?, why?

You have a nice pictures but a simple plumbing diagram would be better to convey a technical message, at least for me.
The photo showing the actual plumbing is hard to follow, that's why we created to attached drawing (fig 2 on the webpage).

The photo of the actual plumbing includes a box that contains a double decker of unrelated plumbing. The top plumbing is a tee valve that switches the pump's input to Winterize to suck in antifreeze; they are not part of the violation so they aren't shown in figure 2. The bottom plumbing is a simple tee that adds the overpressure safety valve to the plumbing headed to the bypass valve that disables the safety valve.
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:18 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by gregmchugh View Post
Thanks for the post. I agree. National Fire Protection Association code 1192 7.3.11.1 is clear that a pressure valve is required and Hymer's bypass valve defeats that required function. The code doesn't allow electronics in the heater to replace the pressure valve. The pressure relief safety valve releases the steam/water safety to the ground. The electronics MAY shut the gas and electric heater off and the pressure MAY return to safe levels in hours. The electronics do not immediately release the pressure to the ground. Will an RV owner try to fix his heater that just stopped working and get sprayed with scalding water?

The RVIA doesn't have the power to wave the total intent of the NFPA code and then represent the RV as compliant and safe.
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Old 04-30-2018, 04:18 PM   #14
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I assume this is the ďreliefĒ valve flow diagram by Roadtrek. Trumaís manual clearly shows how a pressure relief valve should be installed so why would they approve a different and unsafe installation.
A first boom-boom malfunction and Roadtrek could be in a deep trouble and will not be able to say we didnít know.
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:03 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeRa View Post
I assume this is the ďreliefĒ valve flow diagram by Roadtrek. Trumaís manual clearly shows how a pressure relief valve should be installed so why would they approve a different and unsafe installation.
A first boom-boom malfunction and Roadtrek could be in a deep trouble and will not be able to say we didnít know.
Let's fix it before equipment is damaged or people injured. BTW: this is hymer aktiv. Roadtrek is now just a market name for some Hymer's. The truma Combi is a great product so they may soon be on Roadtrek.
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Old 04-30-2018, 08:05 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BBQ View Post
.

He is BS'ing again.

RVIA is NOT a regulatory authority.

RVIA is a voluntary industry trade association.
It has no legal authority whatsoever.
ie. the boss is asking the little boys club to review itself.
No bad thing is going to come out of it.
I bet you no study has been done by them. It is only a rubber stamp.
If they have done any real review, JH would have published their formal report instead of doing this song and dance.

I agree. Rvia has no regulatory authority and that may be the root of the problem. Road Trek: the group is a choreographed cheering leading group. No freedom of speech. I miss the owner's great comments and pictures.
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Old 04-30-2018, 08:13 PM   #17
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WGO installs a PRV on the Travato per Truma's instructions. They don't do it without being required to obviously.
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File Type: jpg travato PRV.jpg (52.2 KB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg travato prv2.jpg (94.3 KB, 38 views)
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Old 04-30-2018, 09:03 PM   #18
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I have the Isotemp marine style water heater with the 100PSI safety valve attached at the factory, it is also used to drain.

Webasto Dual Top has pressure relief valve.

Hot water heaters have been installed in RVs for years, it would be nice to know what the reasoning process was to constrain safety valve outlet.
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File Type: jpg 123.jpg (94.6 KB, 11 views)
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Old 04-30-2018, 09:06 PM   #19
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WGO installs a PRV on the Travato per Truma's instructions. They don't do it without being required to obviously.
Yes, I look at a travato and their plumbing was correct and clever.
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Old 04-30-2018, 09:22 PM   #20
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I guess it will be telling if they make a running change on Aktivs at some point. I'm sure JH is looking at the cost to recall on all they've built so far to change it. It would cost hundreds $ per van to fix $.25 worth of T and tubing.
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