A different way to make routes in Garmin Basecamp

[booster]

I probably mentioned this a while ago, but I have been changing the way I use Basecamp to make our custom routings on Basecamp. We like to choose the exact route to take so no GPS "freelancing" to roads we don't want to be on so it is certainly more difficult than just putting in destinations and taking what you get for routes.

There are a couple of weaknesses in Basecamp and the Garmin and other GPS units that have to be addressed if you want full custom routing without surprises.

First off is the whole idea of what a "destination" is. Garmin also uses waypoint. To most GPS units it is an absolute point that you have to go to and not miss it by even a tiny bit. This means that if there is a few hundred feet of road construction or a map error where you destination is placed to set a custom route, the GPS will never stop telling you to turn around and go that point. Garmin addresses this by allowing you to change "destinations" to "shaping points" (used to be called waypoints). Shaping points take you to the location, but if you miss it by any amount and then go back onto the route the GPS picks up the route right there and ignores the "shaping point" so no incessant harping from the GPS to go back to the point. It isn't perfect as sometimes it takes the GPS a while to realize you probably don't care you missed the point and it tries to lead you there by a weird path, but mostly it will get you to the route again pretty well. I don't think any other GPS units use shaping points and destinations unless they have just started doing it.

The second issue with Basecamp and even other map programs like Google maps is the drag and drop of the route often gets weird on you with crazy zigzaging back on forth. Basecamp is probably the worst at drag and drop, though. When drag and drop it creates a destination at each drop point and then recalculates the route to go to it, but it often then takes you right back to the routing you didn't want to be on requiring more drag and drops.

The changes I did in how I do routes gets rid of both of these issues nearly completely.

First off, I now don't put any destinations in the middle of a route unless we really want to stop there for some reason and don't want to miss it. I do put a destination about 100 feet from our driveway so we go through it right away, as that keeps the GPS from freelancing to final destination, which is does sometimes without the first destination but lots of shaping points. Then I put in a final destination. The route can contain dozens of shaping points.

I don't have Basecamp make a route for the near home destination to the final one at this point.

I have a pretty good idea how Garmin will choose to route so I just add destinations along the route we want to take to force the route to go that way. It does not have to perfect at this point. I choose the destinations in order along the route and add letters to the name Basecamp calls them as I go. First is A and the alphabetically after that in order. By doing this Bascamp puts them in alphabetical order in left side panel for that trip so they are also in the order we will be going though them on the route. The reason that this is so nice is that when you tell Basecamp to make a route through destinations you highlight it takes them in order that you select them or if you bulk select with select the first and then shift/select the last destinations it takes them in order that they are on the list. Right click on the selected area of destinations and click "create route using selected waypoints". The route is make with all the destinations in order and if you right click/open the route the details will show the points in the same alphabetical order on the routing. This is important because you may need to add some points to tweak the route or change it later on for some reason.

I look at the route and see if it is just what we want and if it isn't I just add destinations between the existing ones. If the new point is between D and E it would have DA added to the point name and it will show up on the panel list in the right place. To put it in the route just drag the point to over over the route in the left side panel and drop it on the route in the same left panel and it will be added to the route. Unfortunately, it doesn't put it in the right place on the route and always just puts it at the end. Open the route and highlight the point you just added that will be the last point on the details and then use the up arrow on the right side of the details to move it up to the right place. The letters tell you exactly where to put it. Hit the recalculate button and the route is remade.

Repeat adding as needed to get what you want for a route. Then open the route details and change all the points between the first and last destination to shaping points by right clicking them and selecting change to shaping point.

Next is a screenshot of a very simple trip that is split into two destinations so I used two routes rather than a stop in the middle as I know the middle destination point there is very hard to hit sometimes due probably to a map error. The first route starts with A and second starts with MA to keep the separated in the panel. This route is one that I have in the past done with drag and drop and for some reason it has real problems using the drag and drop that is probably related to very limited places to cross the river, so in this case even a simple route is easier adding the letters and hand selecting points. On a complicated route using the letters gets to be much more of a benefit as the route may have 50+ shaping points needed. With that many points, you don't know where you need to put the added one as the list is so long. If you click on any point in the left panel and then right click "show on map" you can see were it is. It may take a couple of tries to find the right one to where you want to add a point, but then you just letter it correctly and it is put in the list at the right point and is easy to know where to move it in the routing.


Here is a screenshot of the route with the first route showing on the map with the arrows showing direction. Second route is shown in smaller no arrows line.




This is with the route detail opened showing how it looks when done and changed to shaping points.

[peteco]

I have always wanted more capability than what GoogleMaps provides, but everything else I have tried has had some limitation or clunkiness that turned me off. I suppose I should bite the bullet and get up to speed on Garmin Basecamp. I am a bit technology and "the system" tired right now: just spent a lot of time trying to get Medicare/Health Insurance issue straightened out. Makes me want to disconnect from the world.

[Winston]

A bit overwhelming for us . . . as we've never used Basecamp and are one of those travelers that just hits some future 'spot' as a destination and lets Google Navigation take us there. True, Google occasionally takes us on a 'strange road', but not sure how we'd do much better trying to plot our route in advance (say, on Basecamp) assuming we're unaware of the area and have no firsthand knowledge of the roads.

Our question relates to your finished Basecamp map. How do you use it? Does Basecamp plot where you are on this map realtime (i.e. Is Basecamp a moving map)? And even if it does, how do you know when to turn? Does the program alert you in advance of a turn like Google Nav does? Or do you zoom in on your present location and assume responsibility for making the correct course corrections (turns)?

[booster]

Originally Posted by Winston

A bit overwhelming for us . . . as we've never used Basecamp and are one of those travelers that just hits some future 'spot' as a destination and lets Google Navigation take us there. True, Google occasionally takes us on a 'strange road', but not sure how we'd do much better trying to plot our route in advance (say, on Basecamp) assuming we're unaware of the area and have no firsthand knowledge of the roads.

Our question relates to your finished Basecamp map. How do you use it? Does Basecamp plot where you are on this map realtime (i.e. Is Basecamp a moving map)? And even if it does, how do you know when to turn? Does the program alert you in advance of a turn like Google Nav does? Or do you zoom in on your present location and assume responsibility for making the correct course corrections (turns)?

We select our routes based on seeing stuff or avoiding things. So we would choose to stay on the Skyline Drive, Blue Ridge Parkway, Smoky Mountain Parkway for instance. But if we put in each end of the parkway or most anything in between we would wind up back on the main highways between them.


Basecamp doesn't do the navigation, it is just for making the routes and having a way to save route files easily for future trips. I make the route on the PC at home or laptop on the road and then it is a direct export via USB cable to the Garmin 890RV we currently have. The 890RV does the actual turn by turn and navigation stuff using the same route that I did on the computer. This is very handy as the maps in the 890RV are the exact same maps as are in the computers and the method of calculating between the points is very close to identical so you very rarely have a route the doesn't transfer exactly as you see it on the computers. We have tried doing stuff with other programs and transferring to various GPS brands and it never seemed to transfer the same with lots of freelancing. The identical transfers of routes plus the Garmin use of shaping points instead of for sure get to destinations makes them pretty unique, I think. With the use of shaping points for all the "guide" points along the way you don't get them announced because they are just guides of the route. Destinations do announce when you get there and show on the GPS miles left to go box if you have it activated to be on the screen. It does announce all the turns and such.



If we are already someplace unfamiliar and we want to got to Walmart or such, then we will just let the 890RV choose the route, but when we want to go the scenic routes like along a coast shoreline or the parkways mentioned above having it predone is really nice.


Another thing that I do with Basecamp is find campgrounds we may want to stay at in areas we are going to and the same with site seeing stuff. I just put them into Basecamp as places on the trip side panel on the left, but don't put them in any of the routes. They can then be easily transferred into any route from there. They also transfer to the 890RV so we can access them there to go directly there with the GPS if we choose to.


As others, and I, have said, Basecamp is kind of clutzy and has a long learning curve. Not much for instructions anywhere so it takes some experimenting to learn the most useful things in how it all works together. It has been a bit frustrating to learn it, but now that we have a good way to make it all work, I wouldn't be without it. The 890RV GPS is really nice with it's tablet Android based IPS wide viewing angles 8" screen that is very easy to see for both the driver and copilot.

[BillsPaseo]

My main use of my Garmin Montana is back-country navigation on our motorcycles. I have a mount for it on my handlebars, and with this use case, turn-by-turn navigation is pretty useless...

So what I do is plan my route in Basecamp using the City Navigator maps, then convert the route to a track, set the color of the track to red (to make it really stand out on the map), and download it to the GPS. I keep the GPS set to display the Topo maps, and keep it zoomed in fairly tight (usually the 0.2 mile scale).

This way, when I am approaching an intersection, a quick glance down at the map shows me which way to go. Works really well. If I'm really deep in the back-country, and in an unfamiliar area, I will carry a paper map as a backup (for example out in the middle of Death Valley, 50 miles from the nearest paved road).

I very rarely need a GPS when in the van... I've usually planned out the route on Google Maps, and have it pretty much memorized.

[Winston]

As we read your descriptions of Basecamp usage we’re pondering whether our slowness to appreciate the capabilities and ‘beauty’ of Basecamp might be a reflection of our differing approaches to travel? You represent the preplanner, we, a more ‘play-it-by-ear’ impromptu approach? You create the routes you intend on taking, we ‘record’ the routes just driven.

Maybe our trails will cross someday and you can give us a further firsthand lesson. We’re kinda ‘technology driven’so always looking for new ideas.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Winston

As we read your descriptions of Basecamp usage we’re pondering whether our slowness to appreciate the capabilities and ‘beauty’ of Basecamp might be a reflection of our differing approaches to travel? You represent the preplanner, we, a more ‘play-it-by-ear’ impromptu approach? You create the routes you intend on taking, we ‘record’ the routes just driven.

Maybe our trails will cross someday and you can give us a further firsthand lesson. We’re kinda ‘technology driven’so always looking for new ideas.

I do think that the traveling style makes a big difference in all of this kind of stuff. One big driving factor for me is my own sanity and safety when driving. My copilot is a non map reader and doesn't want to mess with the GPS so it is very hard to drive in unfamiliar places while reading maps of setting the GPS. It call from many stops a day that way to do the navigating before starting again.


We also are not particularly tied in to one kind of road like many people seem to be in either preferring all side roads or the faster get there speeds of the major highways. We will often mix both in a day of driving to get where we are going and then do the scenic routes when available to do. We will follow all the small roads along a coast of shorelines of the great lakes, for instance but will take the freeway to get there to start. You save the routes you take for the future and we save the routes we make before going in the first place for the future also.



Since this started as needing because of the necessity to not stop all the time, I have really begun to like the whole thing as it encourages us to do more up front research on the areas we are going to so I will have a bunch of places saved in the trip program that we can put in the GPS at any time, including potential campgrounds. We have Allstays Pro which is pretty thorough and allows us to get a pretty good idea of what places would be good to consider and if we already have them picked out and in the trip route they are easy to find at the end of a day, or to call the day before to see if they have openings. With a well planned route, we have become very spoiled in not having worry about watching for signs and turns and the fact that the Garmin when used with shaping points doesn't care if we go off route and then come back on if we see something we might want to jump off and go to we can without any hassles. Kind of gives the best of fully routed and wandering ability at the same time. On thing that is very nice to have if you have a preplanned route for the day of driving is that you have a continuous readout of the miles left to the final destination which is very useful if you do some extra stuff along the way that eat up some time to know when you will arrive.



I do hope we cross paths someday as I would really like to see your van build and power system. I think we nearly would have gone right by your home on our fall trip that was cancelled this year. We were going from Minneapolis area to the UP and across the Mackinac Bridge to Wilderness State Park and then south to the freeways to head to the east coast. I think are somewhere along that in Michigan IIRC.

[Urlauber]

I just started using BaseCamp this year. Takes a little while to "get it" since the UI is a bit different from the usual modern look and behavior. It is very powerful, and keeping in mind that it is provided for free I am impressed.

To learn to use it, I would recommend the easily understandable video series by EZ Moto Tim, who calmly explains the various features in a soothing way.

For this year's summer trip, I used BaseCamps Trip Planner which handles multi-day trips well. The routing isn't always perfect, sometimes it tries to send you on unpaved Forest Roads parallel to the highway, so one needs to apply some common sense. You can pick different routes by choosing "Car" vs "RV" as well, sometimes it is not totally clear how the different ways are determined.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Urlauber

I just started using BaseCamp this year. Takes a little while to "get it" since the UI is a bit different from the usual modern look and behavior. It is very powerful, and keeping in mind that it is provided for free I am impressed.

To learn to use it, I would recommend the easily understandable video series by EZ Moto Tim, who calmly explains the various features in a soothing way.

For this year's summer trip, I used BaseCamps Trip Planner which handles multi-day trips well. The routing isn't always perfect, sometimes it tries to send you on unpaved Forest Roads parallel to the highway, so one needs to apply some common sense. You can pick different routes by choosing "Car" vs "RV" as well, sometimes it is not totally clear how the different ways are determined.

Absolutely has a long learning curve, but the videos do give you the basics. Once you start to use it a bit you start finding the warts of oddities that happen with all GPS programs so as oddball route decisions.


There are a bunch of things you can do to get around the oddities, such as the route planning I showed in the first post, which lets you easily eliminate whatever oddball routing choices Basecamp makes. You also can set what roads and things you want to avoid such as dirt roads, tolls, etc. It is also pretty easy to put all the routing preferences into a custom profile to use so you get the correct average speeds per road style, avoidances, faster/shorter type routing selection, and some other things so it is very useful.


I don't know what process you are currently using but most likely you picking a beginning and end point to make a route or choosing multiple destination points along the way doing a route through them. The big thing to remember is that the program is going to do whatever it wants between the points you put in based on the settings you have put in it. Of course it also probably influenced by the phase of the moon and windspeed too


Do you have the route displayed in full on the screen when you are done? If so, you can just follow the route while zoomed in to see the exact roads you will be on. If you don't like what you see, you can drag and drop the route to where you want it or do like I did in the first post be just adding destinations to the route in the right place and recalculating the route. When done, you can also do the driving simulator to have the route actually followed. If you do it with an arrow pointer and not the car or other, you can watch for any oddities like it suddenly turning around or spinning in a circle which indicate a point to look at.


However you alter the route to get what you want, either dragging or adding destinations, you are wise IMO to go in and change the destinations to shaping points so the GPS uses them for routing but not miles to end of the route or next destination. If you have lots of destinations to shape a route you will get really tired of hearing "arriving at....."


I have never seen the screen displaying the way you have it on left side panel. I always have it as shown in my screen shots in the first post. If that a trip summary after the fact or how you work with it?


It appears that you have a multiday trip all in one route, which we have done also in the past, but don't do much anymore. You can run into an issue when leaving wherever you stayed overnight. When you leave the next day if you don't tell the GPS to go through the destination you are at and then make sure you go through that point, it will freelance to the next destination. I usually try to put all my destinations on a major road nearly at where I am going so the GPS can find it going out again easily as it will take you to it. If you do use multiday and your GPS has the option to go to nearest entry point it should do that without losing the shaping points, but I am certain that always happens as it was not on our old Garmins but is on the new 980RV. It would not be unusual for me to put one destination just before the turn in to a campground and another just on the other side of turn in if we are leaving that direction the next day.

[Urlauber]

Originally Posted by booster

I have never seen the screen displaying the way you have it on left side panel. I always have it as shown in my screen shots in the first post. If that a trip summary after the fact or how you work with it?

It is the TRIP PLANNER function in BaseCamp I was referencing, a different way to set up a trip. Rather than trying to explain the differences, best way to understand it would be to watch Tim's video Part 11. (Search for "0j05LLfEUeI" in Youtube for a direct link.)

Originally Posted by booster

It appears that you have a multiday trip all in one route, which we have done also in the past, but don't do much anymore. You can run into an issue when leaving wherever you stayed overnight. When you leave the next day if you don't tell the GPS to go through the destination you are at and then make sure you go through that point, it will freelance to the next destination. I usually try to put all my destinations on a major road nearly at where I am going so the GPS can find it going out again easily as it will take you to it. If you do use multiday and your GPS has the option to go to nearest entry point it should do that without losing the shaping points, but I am certain that always happens as it was not on our old Garmins but is on the new 980RV. It would not be unusual for me to put one destination just before the turn in to a campground and another just on the other side of turn in if we are leaving that direction the next day.

Again, it's the Trip Planner thing, and I did not run into these issues much. For that multi-day trip, in the morning I would scroll down to the starting point for that day's route, and it would give me the option to go to the next waypoint. If there are multiple waypoints on a day's route, and you pass one, you can just choose the next one so it won't try to route you back to the one you "missed".

BaseCamp is really a rather complex beast and it allows you to do the same thing in 3 or 4 different ways - which is very cool, but can be confusing when you're trying to grasp its functionality.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Urlauber

It is the TRIP PLANNER function in BaseCamp I was referencing, a different way to set up a trip. Rather than trying to explain the differences, best way to understand it would be to watch Tim's video Part 11. (Search for "0j05LLfEUeI" in Youtube for a direct link.)



Again, it's the Trip Planner thing, and I did not run into these issues much. For that multi-day trip, in the morning I would scroll down to the starting point for that day's route, and it would give me the option to go to the next waypoint. If there are multiple waypoints on a day's route, and you pass one, you can just choose the next one so it won't try to route you back to the one you "missed".

BaseCamp is really a rather complex beast and it allows you to do the same thing in 3 or 4 different ways - which is very cool, but can be confusing when you're trying to grasp its functionality.

I have used the Trip Planner and quickly decided it wasn't what I was looking for as I want to be able to shape the routes between destinations. Trip planner is basically just a list of destinations, just like if they were saved in saved places in the GPS, but put in order by trip planner. The good is that it doesn't matter where you start from on any given day as each day is used like a separate routing. The bad is that you get whatever the GPS wants to give your for a route just like if you entered the destination into the GPS. If you are OK with those routes and don't want to be able to shape the routes you take, Trip Planner is fine. It would work horribly on a trip like going down the Appalachian Ridge on the Skyline Drive and Blue Ridge Parkway as it would not let you stay on the parkways and always move you off them, for instance.


I would a similar thing for multiday trips but would do a separate trip for each day with a route we choose. This can work well for us because while we are usually firm on what routes we want to take, but are generally very flexible on what days so we may decide to stay in the middle of a route or stay at or around a destination for a while. I would then just add a new start point to next route and let the GPS take us to it to put us on the preset route.


I think it all hinges on how uncomfortable and irrated you get from the routes the GPS and Basecamp choose to put you on. For the places we like to go to and roads we like to drive, it gets intolerable, but for other people it is just fine to go however the GPS. Different strokes as they say.

[booster]

One thing I forgot to mention is a glitch the has bitten me more times than I care to admit.


We often do an out to some place trip with a custom route and usually like to come back the same way. The obvious solution is to do the "reverse route" option in Basecamp or the GPS.


The issue comes up if you have any destinations or shaping points that are on divided highways along the way. If you are going north going the point will be on the northbound lane and when you do reverse direction that point stays in the north bound lane and is not moved to southbound, causing the GPS to go past it on the southbound and back north to go through the point and then turn around and go south again on the route.


It is pretty simple to just move the point in the GPS or very easy in Basecamp, but you have remember to check for it when you reverse the route.

[Urlauber]

Originally Posted by booster

The bad is that you get whatever the GPS wants to give your for a route just like if you entered the destination into the GPS. If you are OK with those routes and don't want to be able to shape the routes you take, Trip Planner is fine.

Not totally following here... initially Basecamp calculates your route, yes, but you can drag and adjust it the way you want. You can add more points/destinations for every day, like I did with gas stations. You can add shaping points (I think...) but then again I do usually follow the roads the GPS suggest, or take a different one if there is a reason for it. In the end it is just a suggestion, not something you HAVE to follow 100%.

[booster]

Just for reference of a quick look at a more complex trip I did for our, unfortunately canceled, fall trip to the East. This a section that goes from the start of the Skyline Drive in Virginia to Smoky Mountain National Park in Tennessee. All the indicators on the route are either destinations or shaping points and that many were needed to keep us on the parkways and not getting moved off the larger highways. IIRC there are three destinations and a start point for actual start and finish of segments setup as three trips. There are also a few destinations in the are named as decision points for us so they will announce we are there. They are mostly things like turn offs to cave tours or campgrounds, plus some hiking areas that we might want to go to. It announces the turn coming and we decide if want to go there and then exit and put that saved place directly into the GPS. If we decide to not go there and continue on we are fine because we did go through the destination and the route continues just fine. Doing this route took a bit under two hours, I think, and was quite easy using the lettering system to keep track of stuff. I did a similar route in 2014 for a trip on the same route and it took me days or frustrating drag and drop attempts. The indicators that are off the route are our saved points we may want to go to so easy to find and go to if wanted.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Urlauber

Not totally following here... initially Basecamp calculates your route, yes, but you can drag and adjust it the way you want. You can add more points/destinations for every day, like I did with gas stations. You can add shaping points (I think...) but then again I do usually follow the roads the GPS suggest, or take a different one if there is a reason for it. In the end it is just a suggestion, not something you HAVE to follow 100%.

Adding extra destinations is the same as drag and drop in reality and it appears from your list you didn't need to change the routes much at all as they show maybe one intermediate destination. It can get really odd if you have a route like the parkway route I just posted where might need 50 or more drag and drops to shape the route because they will do some weird stuff often and get so far off you have to start over. If you are OK with doing it that way, no problem if it works for you.


We do similar with gas stops fairly often but don't put the destination exactly at the station itself because sometime the maps get funny around driveways and access roads. We would usually have the destination on the main road within site of the station so we are sure to go through the destination and not miss it and have to go back to it. If it is a well traveled area we will just use the "just ahead" feature on the GPS which contains most, but not all, stations.



I haven't found a way yet, but still looking, for putting shaping points in directly instead of destinations, but in reality it doesn't really matter much because they are easy to change once the route is done. In the trip/open panel just right click on a destination and click on the change to shaping point, won't announce.

[Urlauber]

I see... thank you for explaining further. Driving in the Southwest you don't have that many alternative routes, so what Garmin suggests is usually close to what you wanted anyway, and re-routing is fairly simple. Not so in your example. Makes sense!

[booster]

Originally Posted by Urlauber

I see... thank you for explaining further. Driving in the Southwest you don't have that many alternative routes, so what Garmin suggests is usually close to what you wanted anyway, and re-routing is fairly simple. Not so in your example. Makes sense!

Yep, totally agree, wide open spaces and few possible routes are a totally different thing to deal with.



On that same 2014 trip we went up the east coast from just north of New York City to upper main. Try to keep a GPS on the coastal roads when there is a freeway a few miles away I was a GPS newbie then and it gave me fits.



Basecamp is clutzy but very powerful when you get deep into it and nothing else since the old Streets and Trips which ran on the laptop itself come close to it. The biggest benefit with Garmin is the use of identical maps and calc methods between the GPS and Basecamp which really reduces transfer errors.

[Winston]

Originally Posted by booster

We will follow all the small roads along a coast of shorelines of the great lakes . . .

. . . I think we nearly would have gone right by your home on our fall trip that was cancelled this year. We were going from Minneapolis area to the UP and across the Mackinac Bridge to Wilderness State Park and then south to the freeways to head to the east coast. I think are somewhere along that in Michigan IIRC.

No, no, no . . . the best part of Michigan starts at Wilderness State Park . . . then, do as you say . . . "follow all the small roads" down the shoreline . . . (Lake Michigan shoreline).

If you decide to reschedule that trip, let us know . . . we'll offer a few tips and maybe even rendezvous in some nice Michigan park. We used to discourage visitors to Michigan due to the costs . . . but we're currently in New England and after a few days here, we have a whole new appreciation for high costs (Massachusetts State Park was advertised on the site as "starting at $17", when we hit the button to pay . . . somehow they were demanding nearly $60.) So, come to Michigan, we can find you a campsite for less than $60! . . . . ah, maybe . . .

[booster]

Originally Posted by Winston

No, no, no . . . the best part of Michigan starts at Wilderness State Park . . . then, do as you say . . . "follow all the small roads" down the shoreline . . . (Lake Michigan shoreline).

If you decide to reschedule that trip, let us know . . . we'll offer a few tips and maybe even rendezvous in some nice Michigan park. We used to discourage visitors to Michigan due to the costs . . . but we're currently in New England and after a few days here, we have a whole new appreciation for high costs (Massachusetts State Park was advertised on the site as "starting at $17", when we hit the button to pay . . . somehow they were demanding nearly $60.) So, come to Michigan, we can find you a campsite for less than $60! . . . . ah, maybe . . .

We had scheduled two days at Wilderness and have done most of the shoreline south of their on a previous trip and totally agree it is very nice along there. This time we were on a pretty tight timeline as we like to do a fall trip after labor day when things are less crowded in the northern areas. We were going to leave home on Labor day stay in the UP that night and then to Wilderness for a couple days. Long drive after that as a one day drive to Allegany New York to visit another member here for a few days and then a couple weeks in upper New York, Vermont and New Hampshire where have not been before. Parkways south to Tennessee and home by second week of October in time to button up everything around the house for winter.


It is getting expensive all over it appears although our yearly two weeks in Custer State Park (our favorite place) is still in the $30 per night for electric only but with full bathouse in the smallest out of the way campground. Very quiet compared to the other campgrounds there. Going east we expected rates to be north of $50 most of the way. Do you ever go up to Copper Harbor and stay at Fort Wilkens State Park? Our fall trip is quite often a week there.


If we get that way again we will certainly let you know and see how your schedule is or at least get some Michigan pointers.

[Winston]

Originally Posted by booster

Do you ever go up to Copper Harbor and stay at Fort Wilkens State Park? Our fall trip is quite often a week there.

Yes, we've been there on several occasions and, yes, let us know if you're planning a return so we can rendezvous.