Great West: The Rest of the Story (long)

[Rok]

I don't know if this is of interest to anyone. I wrote it up for another venue. Read it if you like:

(It's fairly long so I'll post it in segments.)

AND NOW FOR THE REST OF THE STORY...

For a number of decades up until about ten years ago, a fellow named Paul Harvey hosted conservative radio spots called “The Rest of the Story”. Normally he would do the setup for the spot by building a detailed somewhat elaborate and interesting story to a point where the listener wanted resolution to the story. Harvey would then go to a commercial break leaving on some sort of cliffhanger. After the commercial break he would return and give the “Rest of the Story” giving the listener the resolution he or she wanted, but usually there was some sort of twist, unexpected conclusion, or zinger at the end. Then he would conclude in a slow methodical cadence, “And .. now .. you .. know...the REST of the Story!.”

I remember hearing his bits at my grandparent's house. I liked the spots, mostly because they involved knowing something unusual or shocking. So, for this tale, I will borrow his title. It seems appropriate for the story I'm about to tell....

Almost exactly three years ago, my wife Maggie and I purchased a Great West Legend SE Class B (ie, small) Motor-home. It was a huge purchase for us, so we had spent months researching what our options were.
Here is a quick rundown of the different brands and why we chose the Great West:
RoadTrek, the largest Class B manufacturer in the US, (and the world, I believe) was a bit too basic. They were solid and seemed well built but didn't seem to have any of the bells and whistles some of the other brands had. They were all cookie cutter images of each other unit of the same model, so they had the consistency of being produced that way, but there were few options available, and customization was limited mostly to after-market add-ons.

Airstream, better known for its top end travel trailers with their trademark stainless-steel finishes, also produced a Class B motor-home, the Airstream Interstate. And while Interstates seemed to be very well made and were nicely laid out and they had lots of bells and whistles and top end components, they were priced accordingly, or a little more than accordingly in our opinion. You get a great rig from Airstream, but you pay dearly for it.

Pleasure Way, the 2nd largest manufacturer of Class B motor-homes, had very nice rigs, reasonably priced and well built, with fairly nice features. Had we not purchased the Great West Legend SE, we would have bought a Pleasure Way Plateau Class B. There were three things that steered us to the Great West instead: (1) The warranty on the Pleasure Ways was non-transferable. We weren't sure that we would even like traveling in a motor-home, so if we tried it and wanted to sell immediately, we wanted to be able to have our warranty go to the next buyer. (2) The Great West Vans had valve stem extensions on the six tires. On all the other brands you literally had to crawl under the vehicle to fill the inside tires (or have aftermarket extensions put on the valve stems). It wasn't so much that the aftermarket ones were that expensive, but that having them on the Great West showed that they cared about their customers. And, (3) with the Great West, we got a lot more features at a very reasonable price. And, if we chose the SE model, we would also be able to get some customization done, because it was still on the factory line and wasn't completely built yet, so they would be able to add stuff on at our request as it was built.

Winnebago, the largest manufacturer of (mostly larger) motor-homes in the U.S. & world had a few models of very inexpensive Class B's, for tens of thousands of dollars less than most of the others, but the design of the layout and quality of wood used was substandard and it even smelled bad from some of the glues and sealers they used.

The other “off” brands not listed above were usually very limited in production, designed for a specific use, or we would have to travel a long distance to get to an authorized service outlet.
We quickly chose the Mercedes Sprinter Van to be the base of our unit. All of the above manufacturers had models that were built from Mercedes Sprinters. We narrowed it down to the Pleasure Way or The Great West, and because of the reasons above, we chose Great West.

There were no Great West dealers in our area, but we were able to deal with Great West directly, with the owner, Dave Debraga, no less. Dave was even willing to bring our new rig to our front door and give us a tutorial on how to use it. He said if there were any warranty issues, we just needed to find a local repair place and get it fixed there and Great West would cover that expense. That was some great service, in our opinion. In fact, it sounded too good to be true, so we took a road trip to visit another Great West owner who lived about an hour north of us who had been through the same drill.

He had a nearly new, one year old Great West Legend EX, the extended version. We liked the layout, and really liked everything we saw. It also gave us a chance to find out if Great West followed up on their “too good to be true” promises about delivering it to our door and getting the warranty work done anywhere. Paul, the owner of the Legend EX said that they did.
That was all good enough for me. We were going with Great West, but we had one more choice to make: EX, their deluxe extended version or the SE model, a shorter version, but still with all the deluxe bells and whistles.

The EX was slightly larger 1 foot 4 inches of extra length (24' 1” vs 22' 9”) and would be slightly roomier. It would be nearly identical to the one we viewed on our road trip north. The problem was that the one Dave (DeBraga) had available had already been produced and was at a dealership in Florida (we're in Seattle). There would be a long travel to get it to us, plus there wouldn't be any customization available. The owner of the EX we looked at suggested that we insist on the stay-closed cabinet hardware. That was the one item he didn't like on his Great West—the cabinets would sometimes pop open while traveling and dump the contents out into the van.

The SE was just entering the production line at the Great West production facility in Winnipeg. We could get a few custom items, and when it was finished, it would be closer to be delivered to us.

[Rok]

GAKK...the formatting was all screwed up, so I had to edit.

-R

[Rok]

(Continued...)

Again, we researched the hell out of the issue, and found that length is a very important issue. Any time you add length to a motor-home, you simultaneously reduce the maneuverability of the rig, reduce the number of places you can park, and even the number of places you can go—some places limit the length of vehicles. You also increase the tolls at some areas because some ferries and toll roads base their tolls on length.

I, being a 6' 0” tall fellow, wanted to opt for the longer van with its additional space and longer bed. Maggie, my wife, who is both short (5' 3”) and an avid hiker wanted to opt for the agility and maneuverability of the shorter SE unit so she could navigate and park in more wilderness areas.

We talked to Dave DeBraga, the owner of Great West, and I asked him to take the measurements of the actual bed I was going to be sleeping on if we got the SE. He had one of his people get the measurements for me. I told him that I was really concerned about the size of the bed. I had seen the bed in the EX, and it was plenty long for me, but I didn't know about the shorter SE since I had never seen one. Dave told me that at 6' 0” I would have plenty of space to sleep in the SE—his exact words were, “I guarantee it.”

I measured the space in our driveway where we planned to park the rig and found that the spot was just the right size for the smaller unit, but the larger unit would be extremely tight and might not even fit. Between Dave's promise and that measurement, Maggie was able to sway me into getting the smaller unit fresh off the line. By doing so we got the bonus of getting the special hardware plus a few other customizations: a rear view camera, a wi-fi booster, a cell phone booster, side cameras, and a little fan for the sleeping area. Dave offered everything at a package deal of $107,000 and said that was a better deal than we would get elsewhere because we were cutting out the middle man somewhat. So, my wife Maggie & I ordered it up and set a delivery date. We had a specific trip already planned that we wanted to take it on, and Dave said he could get it to us about two weeks before we had to leave.

Dave explained that he didn't have a license to sell retail in the U.S., so we would have to go through one of his dealers, Lake Region RV in Minnesota. He would still deliver it to us at our house, but Lake Region would handle all the paperwork. All we had to do was give them a deposit of $10,000. I said 10,000 WHAT?! I wasn't ready to deposit 10 grand on anything I hadn't already seen, especially not with someone I didn't know well or couldn't get references on.

After a couple of days of discussion with Dave, then with a fellow named Dale Borstad, the owner of Lake Region RV, then with a manager at Dale's bank, we finally came to a solution: I would deposit the $10,000 with Dale's bank in a trust account. Upon delivery of the rig from Dave Debraga, I would sign a document that would release those funds. If the rig wasn't delivered, I would get those funds back.

Then we waited for the motor-home to arrive....


Finally the day came when the van was to arrive. Dave was eight days late! We had planned on taking an overnight test trip the weekend before the start of our big trip. That would have allowed us to get accustomed to the van. Because of the eight days, we would not have that opportunity.

The van was in transit on a flatbed truck heading toward us. Dave would arrive Friday morning at the airport and would meet up with the van, get it washed, and bring it to us ready to go and give us a tutorial on how to use it. At least that was the plan.

Friday morning rolled around and no Dave, afternoon came and we had made a number of frantic calls and got no return calls from Dave. We were worried.

Finally Dave called and apologized for not returning our calls. He hemmed and hawed for a while and finally told us (we were on speakerphone) that there had been a problem during transit of the van. “A bird or something flew into the front grill of the van and there was some damage,” Dave said. He was going to get the van cleaned and assess the situation and then he would call us later.

Finally the call came and Dave asked us to come over to the hotel where he and his driver were staying, to see the van.

We drove over. This was the first time we had seen our van. And the first thing we noticed was, IT WAS BLACK! We had never seen a black Sprinter Van before, let alone a motor-home made from one. It was kind of cool in its own sort of way, but it was also very-very different.

Then we saw the damage to the front grill. Dave and the driver had cleaned the entire van including the point of impact. It was really obvious, even without the original debris, that whatever hit the grill—it wasn't a bird. Plus, had it been a bird, Dave and his helper would have certainly known it before cleaning the rig. I wondered why Dave had said “a bird or something hit the van”. Why Dave decided to include some imaginary bird in his scenario, when clearly it wasn't a bird, I have no idea. But, that bothered me then, and it has bothered me ever since.

[Rok]

(continued....)

Anyway, we drove the motor-home from the hotel to a parking spot in front of our house.

There were several other things that threw us for a loop:

We had special ordered a “rear view camera” NOT a backup camera that goes on when you are in reverse and helps when you are backing up, one that shows the entire roadway behind the rig WHILE you are driving, like a rear view mirror. Airstream had them stock on their units, Pleasure Way had them, too. Even the lowly Winnebagos had them stock. I made it abundantly clear exactly what I wanted—I wanted what the Airstream Interstates had, I wanted what the Pleasure Way Plateaus had, I wanted what the Winnebago ERAs had.

When the rig was on its way, I asked Dave about the rear-view camera. He said it was really nice, better than the ones on those rigs, and he was sure that I would love it.

So, what did we get? We got a dimunitive BACKUP camera that displayed on a tiny monitor built into rear view mirror. The EXACT thing that I had told Dave I didn't want!

So we started in on the tutorial, and when we got about an hour in, Dave found out that the Espar Diesel Hydronics unit, the unit that provided heat for the coach and hot water for the taps wasn't working. The tutorial abruptly ended and Dave spent some hours on the phone with one of his techs in Winnipeg troubleshooting and repairing the Hydronics unit.

Everything cut into the time we were supposed to be learning how to use the motor-home. We felt like we were involved in some sort of surreal Chinese fire drill.

But, we figured that Dave would extend his stay in order to make sure we were ready for our trip. No such luck. Dave had to get back to Winnepeg because one of his kids was having a birthday party, so he had to be on his originally booked plane flight.


At the end of Dave's stay, Maggie and I had a hard decision to make. We could scuttle our travel plans and forfeit the deposits we had made for our travel, tell Dave to take back the motor-home, and then try to get our $10K deposit back on the motorhome. We didn't know exactly what status that would leave our $10K at. We hadn't discussed what would happen if we refused the unit because of damage.

Or, we could do what we finally did, which was to give Dave the balance of the purchase price, and have him sign a list of things he would do to correct the deficiencies on the rig. And, that is what we did.

Great West eventually paid for us to replace the grill and install a rear-view camera. The rig arrived with no spare rim and tire, and Great West never took care of that. The rig arrived with no medicine cabinet in the bathroom, a feature listed on the spec sheet, and while Dave promised that they would send us one and pay to have it installed, that never happened. One of the vents for the refrigerator would fall out because its mounting hole was miss-cut. We repaired that by just having screws put in to hold it in place. The two side-view cameras were substandard, and we noted that on the sheet that Dave signed. He never replaced them. Dave agreed to repair a small dent in the hood of the rig. He never did. GW techs left off a muffler bracket when outfitting the rig. Dave told us to have it replaced and pay the bill and they would reimburse us. We submitted the bill several times and never received payment. We took the van in and had a number of things repaired at Poulsbo RV (a large chain of RV retailers and repair places in our area). Several more items were on the list, including the medicine cabinet, an exterior light that was missing, and another exterior light that didn't have a motion sensor as was promised in the brochure. The van stayed at Poulsbo waiting for parts to arrive from Great West for nearly two months. The parts never arrived. Eventually, Poulsbo notified us that they would no longer do warranty work for Great West. We picked up the van and all the batteries were dead. To the best of our knowledge, Great West never paid Poulsbo RV.

One of the two turn screws that open and close the bed was slightly bent when the van arrived (I pointed it out to Dave). The bend worsened, causing a thumping and a slight jumping of the bed when we used it. So, about a year later, we took it in to Evergreen RV Repair in Seattle to have the item warranty replaced. We had 6 weeks until a planned trip. It took Great West over two months to get the drive screw part to Evergreen. By that time, Evergreen notified us that they would no longer do warranty work on the rig, and they wanted us to pay them for this repair and get reimbursed from Great West ourselves. We submitted the invoice to Great West several times, but they never reimbursed us. The owner of Evergreen RV said he had heated words with the people at Great West in order to just get the part for us.

We found several areas where slip-shod work was done on our van by Great West during its initial construction. We now know that this is common from almost all RV manufacturers.

At the end of 2014, we decided to try to get all of the issues resolved with Great West before our 3 year warranty ran out.

We found that the company had moved the production facilities to the U.S., had built a manufacturing plant, and then gone belly up, reportedly leaving the town of Winfield, AL with a sizable debt (in the low 6 figures). Since that time, the final nail was put in the coffin of Great West and its parent company Sterling when the bank-seized assets of the companies were sold at public auction.

And now you know, THE REST OF THE STORY.

[Boxster1971]

Thanks for the rest of the story. Now we all have some insight on why GW folded. Proving once again that if it sounds too good to be true - it probably is.


- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream

[BBQ]

.

I also tell people -- buy the one you see, the one sitting on the lot.
You see what you get,
and you get what you see.

This requires some planning.
If you are an impulse buyer, you pay a premium.
If you are a forward buyer, you buy in Dec or Jan, off the lot. You will get a good discount.

[MsNomer]

Winter seems to me the best time to buy anyway. Too many stories of people having their spring summer vacations squeezed by the logistics of buying a van just before they are ready to leave.

[Davydd]

The real story is Great West Vans was started by Martin Geurts in 1976 and was sold to Sterling (Debraga) in 2012. Sterling had no RV experience. How much staff was retained is unknown to us. They had a very experienced crew. I know the general manager did not stay. Their facilities at Sterling were not comparable to the original facility. It looked rather disorganized. Then they made their move to Alabama. That's when the rest of the story began.

Geurts was a pioneer in the Class B RV field and an original thinker who used and tested his own RVs. They did make a quality product with a lot of innovative ideas. He just got old and sold. I bought in 2011 and knew about the guy from Ohio who was getting some custom features installed he brought to Geurts to try. That being the Espar heating system, compressor refrigerator, and Outback inverter--all things I didn't have and it was on the assembly line after mine. With those things GWVans was a step ahead of everyone else in 2012 and that's what Sterling inherited.

[Marley]

Originally Posted by Davydd

The real story is Great West Vans was started by Martin Geurts in 1976 and was sold to Sterling (Debraga) in 2012. Sterling had no RV experience. How much staff was retained is unknown to us. They had a very experienced crew. I know the general manager did not stay. Their facilities at Sterling were not comparable to the original facility. It looked rather disorganized. Then they made their move to Alabama. That's when the rest of the story began.

Geurts was a pioneer in the Class B RV field and an original thinker who used and tested his own RVs. They did make a quality product with a lot of innovative ideas. He just got old and sold. I bought in 2011 and knew about the guy from Ohio who was getting some custom features installed he brought to Geurts to try. That being the Espar heating system, compressor refrigerator, and Outback inverter--all things I didn't have and it was on the assembly line after mine. With those things GWVans was a step ahead of everyone else in 2012 and that's what Sterling inherited.

Good to hear the story background. My GWV seems to been have built in the better years.

[Rok]

I found the design of the GW Legends to be brilliant. At the time I bought, they had (1) The largest bed for a Class B (in the EX), (2) The largest bathroom for a Class B, (3) The largest refrigerator for a Class B, and (4) The most storage space for a Class B. Plus, as Davydd mentioned, they were ahead of the curve with the diesel hydronics unit, a solar panel, etc

I still have all those things (excepting the long bed 'cause I got the SE). I really have few regrets about buying despite how I was treated by Great West in General, and Dave DeBraga in particular--although, to be fair, Dave was very smart, and he did do some good things for us.

My guess is that Dave's Fiberglass Fabrication Company relied heavily on sales to Great West so he was kinda forced to buy it to save his own company. This is all conjecture, of course, but he did seem very smart. If only he had a bit more integrity in his business dealings. When I did my final research to see if there was any recourse to be taken (toward the end of 2014) it didn't take me but a few phone calls and internet searches to find number of people who said they had been taken advantage of--a number of them in the 10's of Thousands of dollars. I surmised, probably correctly that pursuing recourse would be futile.

I wonder if any other company would consider using that design again. We've found it to be the best in the industry--for our needs, anyway.

We'd probably buy another if someone picked up the design. We did a review of the new vehicles about 6 months ago and found nothing that we would like better even in the B+'s. That's sad. I'm seriously considering building our next one, IF there is a next one, from scratch.

Or, if we get just a bit more flush, going the path that Davydd went and having one built by Advanced. I still can't get my mind around paying 1/4 million plus for a Class B though.

.......Rocky

[Davydd]

The standard Advanced RV floor plan was pretty much an improvement on the Great West Van. Mike Neundorfer followed the same path I did. He and I independently felt the Pleasure-way Plateau was the best plan available in 2005 and the we both independently settled on Great West Van in 2011 for our second Class B. That was the evolution. What drove Neundorfer was the GW Van was still not good enough for him and he had the where with all to do something about it. I didn't. I was a benefitee since the basic plan met my needs only I wanted more improvements still that ARV could implement and no one else could. ARV fixed the what I considered an ill-designed bathroom by flipping the toilet plan with a larger and accessible recessed vanity sink toward the rear and not over the toilet. They made some other subtle changes and the overall quality was vastly better both under and on the surface.

I couldn't wait to visit their facility the week they officially went into business in May 2012 but still waited two years before pulling the trigger and buying one. By then I had designed and worked out my articulating bed desires. I was very much concerned about long term comfort away from home after traveling to Alaska and back in our GWVan. Comfort wears on you.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by Rok

My guess is that Dave's Fiberglass Fabrication Company relied heavily on sales to Great West so he was kinda forced to buy it to save his own company. This is all conjecture, of course, but he did seem very smart. If only he had a bit more integrity in his business dealings.

I don't know if it was a lack of integrity or just that he got himself in way over his head. He had many good ideas, but seemed to be trying to be everything for everyone because he was unable to find the right people in the wilds of Alabama. He seemed to be answering the phone, planning new rigs, selling... and personally delivering the rigs they managed to complete?? ...and making way too promises that couldn't be kept.

He certainly left a trail of buyers who were owed money - I was nearly one of them... and salesman who sold his rigs, but never got paid. Terrible business, but I suspect that he is the one who lost the big bucks... and his new home and new factory in AL.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by mumkin

I don't know if it was a lack of integrity or just that he got himself in way over his head. He had many good ideas, but seemed to be trying to be everything for everyone because he was unable to find the right people in the wilds of Alabama. He seemed to be answering the phone, planning new rigs, selling... and personally delivering the rigs they managed to complete?? ...and making way too promises that couldn't be kept.

He certainly left a trail of buyers who were owed money - I was nearly one of them... and salesman who sold his rigs, but never got paid. Terrible business, but I suspect that he is the one who lost the big bucks... and his new home and new factory in AL.

This is far more consistent with our experience than are the previous reports. We had our share of miscommunications, missed deadlines and random dropped-balls. But we saw no evidence of willfulness. The truth was stretched at times, but each instance smelled more like the actions of a hopeless optimist than those of a dishonest person. There were many examples of actions that evidenced good intentions. When something wasn't right, huge efforts were made to address the issue. When an important deadline was missed, we were given a substantial (and unsolicited) cash discount in recompense. There was also reimbursement for costs associated with disrupted travel plans. Ultimately, the van was delivered to our door (yes, by Dave himself). When we visited the factory for minor adjustments to our bed mechanism, they spent an entire day addressing that and other issues that they admitted were the results of an inexperienced assembler. When I asked to buy several spare parts and supplies for my DIY improvements, they gave me what I needed and refused payment. There was plenty of evidence of a guy in over his head, but none at all for fundamental lack of ethics.

As for quality, they struggled with some of my customization requests (which were extensive and complex). But, that aside, the basic build quality was every bit as good as I had hoped (and quality was what led me to GWV in the first place). There were only two minor issues: (1) the aforementioned bed tweaks; and (2) an issue with the Espar fuel line installation. The overall quality was vastly better than our previous Airstream Interstate, and this is especially impressive given that this was the very first van out of the new factory.

It is very clear to me that Mumkin is exactly right about the core issue being the difficulty they encountered in staffing and retention. Dave complained to me about how hard it was to find employees who could pass the drug test required by his insurer. They clearly discovered a huge and ultimately fatal difference between the work force in Winnipeg vs Alabama.

All in all, I see the "rest of the story" as a sad narrative of a path paved with good intentions.

[Boxster1971]

Reading this thread it strikes me that GW was a business failure because they were trying to be what Advanced RV became, but at half the price. Low cost for what they were offering was not sustainable.


- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream

[Rok]

Mumkin & Avanti:

I had a rather lengthy post written here giving my feelings and how I came upon them, but I erased it.

Suffice it to say that I disagree strongly with both of your opinions.

I guess it boils down to my belief that "wishful thinking" that causes harm to others IS intentional. That is MY opinion. And since you can't really argue opinions, we will have to agree to disagree.

I'll just leave it at that.

............Rocky

[peteco]

Originally Posted by Rok

Mumkin & Avanti:

I had a rather lengthy post written here giving my feelings and how I came upon them, but I erased it.

Suffice it to say that I disagree strongly with both of your opinions.

I guess it boils down to my belief that "wishful thinking" that causes harm to others IS intentional. That is MY opinion. And since you can't really argue opinions, we will have to agree to disagree.

I'll just leave it at that.

............Rocky

Rocky,
Please post your thoughts. It is helpful to others that are navigating the maze of making a large purchase to see different views of how the seller may be working. In this case, I surmise that both unbridled optimism and intentional deceit was involved. In either case the buyer needs to be cautious and not be too optimistic.

[jrobe]

Originally Posted by Rok

Mumkin & Avanti:

I had a rather lengthy post written here giving my feelings and how I came upon them, but I erased it.

Suffice it to say that I disagree strongly with both of your opinions.

I guess it boils down to my belief that "wishful thinking" that causes harm to others IS intentional. That is MY opinion. And since you can't really argue opinions, we will have to agree to disagree.

I'll just leave it at that.

............Rocky

It is a shame that you had such a bad experience with a major purchase that was supposed to bring years of enjoyment. I feel bad for you. On the other hand, you took some major financial risks here. You bought an expensive van, sight unseen, from a very small company, based in a different country, with a brand new owner and no knowledge of the financial stability of his new business. Unfortunately, I bet there were a lot of employees and creditors that got burned too.

[mumkin]

Have you read all of this thread Peteco? Rok has already typed his fingers to the bone.

I would say that he has totally covered his sad tale and the negative opinions he has developed about the man involved. It is certainly understandable how he feels and why.

We have also heard from avanti about his basically positive experience with the same man. My experience with Dave more matches his. It was with an ambitious young man who was trying to build a customer base... following on the very positive reputation of GWV and its known quality (I dealt with Marty when I bought my first Class B back in 2004... a Classic Supreme) with the addition of more customer options. We were also working with the new Promaster platform. He and I spent a lot of time on the phone talking floor plans... emailing little drawings back and forth. At no time was money or a deposit mentioned. I feel like a more unscrupulous person would have pressed me for an upfront deposit before he spent all this time on my ideas.

This was not long before the collapse and it reached the point where I couldn't get him on the phone for a couple weeks. At the same time I was getting a bit nervous about the new Promasters and all the issues that they were having in their first year on the market... so many recalls. So I decided that I should just go with a little 170 for a couple years.

And as many of you know... going with the old tried and true Roadtrek wasn't the best of my decisions either.

[Rok]

[QUOTE=jrobe;52084]It is a shame that you had such a bad experience with a major purchase that was supposed to bring years of enjoyment.

As mentioned earlier (perhaps on other threads), we have no remorse about the purchase. We probably got more for our dollar than we would have anywhere else--we just didn't get what we were promised. I'm irritated about the way I was treated, not the end result. There are no other non-custom "B" units out there today that we would rather have (other than, perhaps the larger "EX" model of what we have).

As far as years of enjoyment: We've had three and a half so far. We've had the GW to Las Vegas (from Seattle) three times, including Zion, Bryce Canyon, and Death Valley (X2). We've had it in the Canadian Rockies on a trip to Lake Louise then on the Icefields Parkway to Jasper. This last year we went from Seattle to San Diego on a very fun trip. We've also had a number of weekend trips. Once we get the bathroom skylight to stop leaking, we will be in good shape. The amount we've learned from this Rig and our travels with it couldn't be learned in a college, and probably couldn't have been bought elsewhere. In short, we've had wonderful times in the rig.

"I feel bad for you. On the other hand, you took some major financial risks here."

I don't see that. As explained in the long narrative above, we didn't give a deposit to anyone without some outs if things went bad. Had we been caught in the situation when GW went under our deposit would have been secure. We researched the hell out of everything. The only thing I really did wrong was trust the word of someone I didn't really know. Someone who others reported was a straight up fellow.

" You bought an expensive van, sight unseen, from a very small company, based in a different country, with a brand new owner and no knowledge of the financial stability of his new business."

Not exactly sight unseen. We were able to see the EX model about an hour north of us. The owner let us try some of the stuff out. The fact that what we received didn't have many of the things listed on the spec sheet, and also didn't have things others had received just a few months earlier doesn't speak to our gullibility or stupidity so much as to the fact that things were already going south at GW when our rig was being produced.

" Unfortunately, I bet there were a lot of employees and creditors that got burned too."

Bingo. The 5000 or so residents of Winfield each got a tax bill for about $200 to $300 each. I believe some employees moved from Winnipeg to Winfield--to a completely different country and culture, only to find themselves out of work AFTER emigrating to another country. By comparison our loss to those employees, our $2K to $5K "loss" was minor.

As far as creditors are concerned, yes, I've heard of some pretty severe losses. I can only really comment on our personal experiences, and while not good, the end result isn't too bad.

The video by the lawyer on another thread explains a lot. I wish I had seen that before buying...but as mentioned, I did read an entire book that said the same thing and didn't believe it. So, the video probably wouldn't have helped anyway.

Bottom line: Don't feel bad for us. We took a calculated risk. I wasn't looking for sympathy. I posted this here so others would be forewarned.

................Rocky

[peteco]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Have you read all of this thread Peteco? Rok has already typed his fingers to the bone.

Sorry. I must have been distracted by the Christmas rush. Rok; thanks for sharing your story.