Hymer new Lithium/AGM combo

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by BBQ

That sounds like a Winnebago Revel

Cool video. Other than the 144" wb my design isn't anywhere close to a Revel. It will be even more self-sufficent for off-road boondocking. I mean what I said in "less is more". I am trying not to sacrifice too much in what I already have in an extended 24' Sprinter including kitchen and bathroom. You have to be creative in 5' less length so that's what I meant by nothing on the market today.

[avanti]

I am not going to participate in the name-calling, but I will state this:

I am quite certain that a small diesel-fired Espar (or equivalent) hydronic unit used to heat a few gallons of water that share a well-insulated box with a set of lithium batteries could run unattended with a high level of reliability for many weeks. Properly designed, such a system would have a level of reliability comparable to any other fuel-driven furnace, including that in a heated garage. The goal would be to maintain a tiny space at barely above freezing, which is a far cry from heating an entire van to shirtsleeve temperatures. The duty cycle (and thus fuel and power consumption) would be quite low, even in winter Minnesota. Systems like this are totally routine in remote telecommunications installations. There is zero reason to doubt that it could be easily done in a van.

I would never want to own a van that I couldn't winter-store without power. I apologize that I am too slow to understand why this is misguided.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

I am not going to participate in the name-calling, but I will state this:

I am quite certain that a small diesel-fired Espar (or equivalent) hydronic unit used to heat a few gallons of water that share a well-insulated box with a set of lithium batteries could run unattended with a high level of reliability for many weeks. Properly designed, such a system would have a level of reliability comparable to any other fuel-driven furnace, including that in a heated garage. The goal would be to maintain a tiny space at barely above freezing, which is a far cry from heating an entire van to shirtsleeve temperatures. The duty cycle (and thus fuel and power consumption) would be quite low, even in winter Minnesota. Systems like this are totally routine in remote telecommunications installations. There is zero reason to doubt that it could be easily done in a van.

I would never want to own a van that I couldn't winter-store without power. I apologize that I am too slow to understand why this is misguided.

Totally agree with the heat logic. It is highly likely that you could heat an insulated battery box to above the -4*F, and probably above freezing, with the pilot light on an appliance. As said, the duty cycle would be tiny and the fuel use similar, I would think. Even a small catalytic and little temp propane bottle might suffice. Electric heat is fine if plugged in, but that is not an option for everyone.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Cool video. Other than the 144" wb my design isn't anywhere close to a Revel. It will be even more self-sufficent for off-road boondocking. I mean what I said in "less is more". I am trying not to sacrifice too much in what I already have in an extended 24' Sprinter including kitchen and bathroom. You have to be creative in 5' less length so that's what I meant by nothing on the market today.

I can't wait to see it.

Would you share some preliminary sketches? some brainstorming idea?



(in a new thread of course; I wouldn't want to hijack the OP's thread.)

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

If that is your concern then lithium ion batteries are not for you if you can't make arrangements for electricity. Get serious. If anyone wants the advantages of lithium Ion they will be smart enough to solve it but not with Rube Goldberg diesel ignition and smartphones. Didn't I already say you would also need electricity with that too?

I am serious and thank you for understanding, Li is not for me indeed, I don’t want it.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

Totally agree with the heat logic. It is highly likely that you could heat an insulated battery box to above the -4*F, and probably above freezing, with the pilot light on an appliance. As said, the duty cycle would be tiny and the fuel use similar, I would think. Even a small catalytic and little temp propane bottle might suffice. Electric heat is fine if plugged in, but that is not an option for everyone.

Interesting. I wonder what the smallest, cheapest fuel-driven heat source is that would be up to the job. I would suggest solar/electric, but snow is a real issue.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by avanti

I am not going to participate in the name-calling, but I will state this:

I am quite certain that a small diesel-fired Espar (or equivalent) hydronic unit used to heat a few gallons of water that share a well-insulated box with a set of lithium batteries could run unattended with a high level of reliability for many weeks. Properly designed, such a system would have a level of reliability comparable to any other fuel-driven furnace, including that in a heated garage. The goal would be to maintain a tiny space at barely above freezing, which is a far cry from heating an entire van to shirtsleeve temperatures. The duty cycle (and thus fuel and power consumption) would be quite low, even in winter Minnesota. Systems like this are totally routine in remote telecommunications installations. There is zero reason to doubt that it could be easily done in a van.

I would never want to own a van that I couldn't winter-store without power. I apologize that I am too slow to understand why this is misguided.

I'm beating my head against the wall. Do you operate your Espar diesel heater depending on periodic electric ignition and pumping water with a smartphone now? That's not routine. Did I not say you would still need electricity? So, are you serious to believe it would be cheaper or more reliable than 10 amps worth of passive no need to monitor heating pads like this?

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by avanti

I am not going to participate in the name-calling, but I will state this:

I am quite certain that a small diesel-fired Espar (or equivalent) hydronic unit used to heat a few gallons of water that share a well-insulated box with a set of lithium batteries could run unattended with a high level of reliability for many weeks. Properly designed, such a system would have a level of reliability comparable to any other fuel-driven furnace, including that in a heated garage. The goal would be to maintain a tiny space at barely above freezing, which is a far cry from heating an entire van to shirtsleeve temperatures. The duty cycle (and thus fuel and power consumption) would be quite low, even in winter Minnesota. Systems like this are totally routine in remote telecommunications installations. There is zero reason to doubt that it could be easily done in a van.

I would never want to own a van that I couldn't winter-store without power. I apologize that I am too slow to understand why this is misguided.

We were directly involved with hydronic systems so looking from a know-how perspective it seems trivial but for folks without good understanding of how this technology works this concept of heating could be difficult to digest. Attitude adds to missing a point as well.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

Interesting. I wonder what the smallest, cheapest fuel-driven heat source is that would be up to the job. I would suggest solar/electric, but snow is a real issue.

If you only need the electric power for ignition of a small burner, it wouldn't take much solar, and at that point a small, tiltable, pointable panel might work. If tilted, you would greatly reduce the chance of snow sticking, especially at winter sun angles.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

Totally agree with the heat logic. It is highly likely that you could heat an insulated battery box to above the -4*F, and probably above freezing, with the pilot light on an appliance. As said, the duty cycle would be tiny and the fuel use similar, I would think. Even a small catalytic and little temp propane bottle might suffice. Electric heat is fine if plugged in, but that is not an option for everyone.

A small catalytic heater could be at least expensive but temperature control and low temperature ignition could be a problem. Espars - Ebersachers/Webastos are absolute workhorses with years of experience from Alaska to Siberia.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

We were directly involved with hydronic systems so looking from a know-how perspective it seems trivial but for folks without good understanding of how this technology works this concept of heating could be difficult to digest. Attitude adds to missing a point as well.

Um, I have an Espar system. Maybe if you had experience with lithium ion or had a lithium ion battery you would have a different attitude.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Um, I have an Espar system. Maybe if you had experience with lithium ion or had a lithium ion battery you would have a different attitude.

This is going nowhere Dave.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

If you only need the electric power for ignition of a small burner, it wouldn't take much solar, and at that point a small, tiltable, pointable panel might work. If tilted, you would greatly reduce the chance of snow sticking, especially at winter sun angles.

I'm not at all worried about electric power for a fuel-based solution. There are Espar units that run on low at 1 amp. Believe it or not, I have heard of some owners who have 800Ah lithium batteries. Given the trivial duty cycle, it just isn't an issue.

What I meant was a pure solar/heat-pad solution. I think that might work except for the snow issue. I wouldn't trust it in real-life, though. For me, the whole point is being care-free. Having to point a tilted panel each time would defeat the purpose, at least for me.

[gerrym51]

lithium ion batteries 'plate' if charged when the battery is below 32 degrees. they can still be discharged. However 32 degrees outside is not always 32 degrees inside the battery. i suspect it has to be far colder far longer for the battery itself inside to be below 32 degrees.

as an aside if the lithium battery is too full and is charged it also will'plate'.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

This is going nowhere Dave.

I have read many posts from Davydd.

He can be both 'fascinating' and 'aggravating' =often at the same time.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

This is going nowhere Dave.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

I have read many posts from Davydd.

He can be both 'fascinating' and 'aggravating' =often at the same time.

This is a Mutual Admiration Society

Only peeople with pet peeves and OCD need to apply.