New Roadtrek RS E-Trek

[gordonhks]

We know of whom he speaks....

[casd]

If I wanted to install an additional alternator on a SS Agile what would anybody recommend ? One builder told me Mercedes has an optional additional alternator to run the air conditioning. I have a Xantrex Freedom sw3000 to work with the system I want to setup.

forgot: When looking at a new sprinter to build the Mercedes dealer checked into a software upgrade from Mercedes to support high ide, They would install

Thanks

[booster]

Originally Posted by casd

If I wanted to install an additional alternator on a SS Agile what would anybody recommend ? One builder told me Mercedes has an optional additional alternator to run the air conditioning. I have a Xantrex Freedom sw3000 to work with the system I want to setup.

forgot: When looking at a new sprinter to build the Mercedes dealer checked into a software upgrade from Mercedes to support high ide, They would install

Thanks

Have you read the information here on Mercedes not wanting the Sprinters to idle for long periods of time, even with high idle? There does seem to be a valid question as to if you should or not, and the damage it could cause would be expensive to fix. Perhaps your dealer can get a good, current, answer from Mercedes.

[casd]

yes, I have read, why would Mercedes offer a software upgrade for high idle ? but i am with you, why risk the engine over a generator that could be replaced easy, guess you answered my question, go with diesel generator instead

[markopolo]

With an E-Trek, your coach runs off the large battery bank most of the time. Some attention seems to be overly focused on the second alternator but really it is the battery bank that lets it function without a traditional generator. That's my opinion.

Yes, you can run the coach appliances off the under-the-hood generator and maybe you'd have to once in a while but mostly the batteries will supply the necessary power.

I think the coach air conditioning would be largest sustained power draw that would use up the battery reserve. I've never had to run an A/C overnight on a generator but I don't live or travel where it is very hot overnight. If I did find myself camping where multiple consecutive overnight temperatures necessitated using the air conditioner then I'd seek out a campground with plug in power. It would sure be quieter than running a generator.

If you need to idle the engine for power and/or charging then keep within Mercedes guidelines. Those guidelines may change with new engines so get information that applies the model year that you have or are considering buying.

Scroll down to the E-Trek FAQ here: http://www.roadtrek.com/faq.aspx for the most current info from Roadtrek.

[booster]

Good point that Marko makes about the need to run the engine generator in an e-trek. As he says, with all the batteries they have, and the solar, you would be good for a long time on just the batteries, as long as you didn't overuse the high wattage things. The air conditioner is, by far the biggest user, then probably the stove and microwave. Going all electric is not a bad idea, and lots of batteries does give you lots of capabilities, but it does appear Roadtrek stretched too much when they tried to include air conditioning in the things you can (practically) do with just batteries. The engine generator/extended idling thing also jumped into the picture, making longer term (over 4 hours?) air conditioning questionable in an e-trek.

Marko would know better than I do, but my understanding is that the high idle settings that diesels offer are primarily so they can keep them warm at idle in cold weather, and secondarily if they are used in very high electrical load vehicles like ambulances.

We also live in a cooler part of the country, and try to find shore power if we hit a really hot period. Also, in most cases, it cools down pretty reasonably at night, so even if you don't have shore power, you can run the generator during the day and turn it off at night, to run the air conditioning. If we do find a really hot place, it will be an interesting choice of whether to have it hot or noisy all night.

[markopolo]

GM has been pretty consistent on the benefit of or use for high idle or fast idle. (I read a lot more GM docs than MB docs because I have a GM van ) They say you get:

Examples are increased voltage from the alternator or increased cooling from the HVAC compressor. Fast Idle can also take advantage of increased base engine heat output for fast vehicle heating.

Summary:
Increased Air Conditioning for stationary operation.
Increased Electrical Output for stationary operation.
Increased Vehicle Heating for stationary operation.

From actual Mercedes Sprinter docs high idle is recommended for:

High Idle

Recommended for:
- Ambulances
- Shuttle services
- Applications with longer idle times

I did find a GM bulletin for larger diesel trucks that links extended idling and/or not getting the vehicle up to speed / up to a more optimal operating temperature to EGR and DPF concerns.

Vehicles used for shuttle buses and/or ambulances (and other similar applications) may be seeing extended idle times and short drives. The extended idle and short drives may induce EGR and DPF concerns.

In some cases the driver has noticed a "clean filter message" and continued to idle the vehicle. As per the owner's manual description, the vehicle must be driven above 30 mph (50 km/h) until the warning message goes off. This will take about 20 minutes. If the vehicle is not driven, a P244B may be induced.

It seems that problems associated with extended idling or low speed operation can be avoided or minimized by getting the vehicle up to speed / up to a more optimal operating temperature regularly and definitely after a period of extended idling or low speed operation.

Normal idle speed on diesel engines can be used to cool down the engine so I can see where high or fast idle should help to get the engine up to a better operating temperature.

[accrete]

Just a quick note in passing. IMO it would be a shame to muck up a Diesel powered rig like an e-Trek with on board propane. Many of the expedition style vehicles run AC from battery banks, solar, and on rare occasions allowing the engine or a diesel gen to recharge the bank if the sun is not cooperating. I realize the rigs i'm talking about are in a different class but their battery banks are typically around the same as what i'm reading for the e-Trek (google such rigs as Earthroamer, Unicat, "Global Expedition Vehicles").

Cheers,
Thom

[booster]

Originally Posted by accrete

Just a quick note in passing. IMO it would be a shame to muck up a Diesel powered rig like an e-Trek with on board propane. Many of the expedition style vehicles run AC from battery banks, solar, and on rare occasions allowing the engine or a diesel gen to recharge the bank if the sun is not cooperating. I realize the rigs i'm talking about are in a different class but their battery banks are typically around the same as what i'm reading for the e-Trek (google such rigs as Earthroamer, Unicat, "Global Expedition Vehicles").

Cheers,
Thom

I agree that is a shame to add propane to the e-trek, but IMO, it would be either that or a diesel generator, or no air conditioning when not plugged in. I looked at Earthroamer, and their air conditioner and run times are similar to the e-trek. The problem comes in that if you run the air conditioner for a 8-9 hours, you are probably using upwards of 800AH of 12v power, or close to 10,000 watts. Even if you can get 10 hour of max solar charging, you would need something like 1000 watts of solar to recharge in a day. Not very practical, I think, and you would wind up running the RV engine if you wanted air conditioning for any more than a short time, just like the e-trek. All this would not be an issue, except for the new rules on idling diesels that have DPF and EGR issues if idled too long. IMO, if you want air conditioning off grid, you either need a generator, something like 2000 watts of solar, or an RV engine that can handle extended idling.

[bikerbill]

I've done some looking and what I have found suggests there is a difference between idling and hi-idle. Idling for too long probably is not going to be good for the DEF system but hi-idle is a different situation. In fact some of the diesel engines need to go into hi-idle to clean out the exhaust either by driving at speed or sitting with a high idle on the engine.

[booster]

Originally Posted by bikerbill

I've done some looking and what I have found suggests there is a difference between idling and hi-idle. Idling for too long probably is not going to be good for the DEF system but hi-idle is a different situation. In fact some of the diesel engines need to go into hi-idle to clean out the exhaust either by driving at speed or sitting with a high idle on the engine.

This is from earlier in this discussion

http://classbforum.com/phpBB2/viewto...tart=55#p12777

It is for Sprinters, other brands may be different. To be sure, if you go looking you can find just about any answer. No consistency at all, I fear.

[accrete]

Greetings,

Booster, i agree with your observation and math. It would appear at this stage in available RV technology that long term use of the A/C is not easily doable.

I do freely admit i'm a putz in that i'm able to design a rig that needs no A/C due to the mild year round temps in the area we prefer to venture. But again, when i think of alternate power, _solar_ is not the first thing that comes to mind either! Sun? yea sure... with ~80+" of annual rainfall. HaHa.

Thom

[booster]

There is an e-trek on ebay with no reserve and a fairly low buy it now. I do wonder how well they are really selling. Maybe it is the CS cutting into the sales, as that just seems to me to be a better blend and use of the technololgy.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NO-RESERVE-2...pt=RVs_Campers

[markopolo]

Interesting find Booster!

There's some good pricing info there assuming what the seller says is accurate.
Buy it now price is US $120,044.00 and the seller says:

Buy Now for Only 8K Over Manufacturer Wholesale Price

Seller also says:

MSRP PRICE OF $147,044.

So 20% off MSRP should be possible at dealers that have good inventory turnover.

[booster]

I looked around and he had that Roadtrek for sale a bunch of places over last couple months. Started out asking $137K. In a lot of the other ads he said he wasn't a dealer, so the question is how an individual gets a "new" e-trek to sell? Would be interesting to see the Carfax or other history on it.

The 20% of sounds reasonable, as we have heard for years that if you can get 18% off a current or just passed year model, you are doing very well.

[gerrym51]

on most b's 18 percent is usually possible. Just like cars where an expensive car does not cost that much more to make than the expensive models.

I'm sure there is plenty of play in these higher priced sprinters

[casd]

Making my E-Trek will be a bit more, I went with 2014 SS Agile, added 8 6 volt batteries plus replaced 2 in front so all the same, 3000 watt Magnum Hybrid inverter , 700 watts solar roof , 4 lb flexible panels will have 1000 watts when done, 30 amps mid day output, replacing propane generator with diesel and probably ending up with Espar for heat and water, Webasto Dual too hard to come by, installer 500 miles away, will add propane refrigerator (ice chest style besides 12\110 installed which I am questioning the power its using on 12 volt , I am learning lots!

Originally Posted by accrete

Greetings,

Booster, i agree with your observation and math. It would appear at this stage in available RV technology that long term use of the A/C is not easily doable.

I do freely admit i'm a putz in that i'm able to design a rig that needs no A/C due to the mild year round temps in the area we prefer to venture. But again, when i think of alternate power, _solar_ is not the first thing that comes to mind either! Sun? yea sure... with ~80+" of annual rainfall. HaHa.

Thom

[Fastpaddler1]

Originally Posted by casd

Making my E-Trek will be a bit more, I went with 2014 SS Agile, added 8 6 volt batteries plus replaced 2 in front so all the same, 3000 watt Magnum Hybrid inverter , 700 watts solar roof , 4 lb flexible panels will have 1000 watts when done, 30 amps mid day output, replacing propane generator with diesel and probably ending up with Espar for heat and water, Webasto Dual too hard to come by, installer 500 miles away, will add propane refrigerator (ice chest style besides 12\110 installed which I am questioning the power its using on 12 volt , I am learning lots!

Quite frankly, I think your package makes more practical sense. I use aircon as I have a pooch but NOT very often. I agree on diesel generator. Certainly, most of the folks I know want one and I find mine useful. I do like the Agile and so, CONGRATULATIONS. Certainly, the high tech set up Davydd is getting will be quite amazing but like me, he doesnt use aircon much anyway and that is the big drain in ALL rvs.
AL
I think the E-Trek might have a problem selling their E-Treks at those prices surrounded by attractive alternatives price-wise although not as high tech. The Advanced RV though is another story altogether and looks to be the Rolls Royce of the marque.

[Mike]

Originally Posted by bikerbill

I've done some looking and what I have found suggests there is a difference between idling and hi-idle. Idling for too long probably is not going to be good for the DEF system but hi-idle is a different situation. In fact some of the diesel engines need to go into hi-idle to clean out the exhaust either by driving at speed or sitting with a high idle on the engine.

Sort of re-reading this thread and I was wondering, again, has anyone listened to a Sprinter engine at either regular or high idle, and/or used an audio meter to compare the noise level from an idling diesel engine with that of an average generator, either gas/diesel/propane? I'm sure the generator is the louder of the two, but I was thinking it's got to be fairly noisy running a 6 cylinder diesel engine to generate enough power to recharge whatever your battery bank requires. Those that have rejected the idea of running a generator in a campground because it's too noisy may actually create more noise without a generator. I guess you would run it during "generator allowed" times, but it wouldn't surprise me if there were complaints from adjacent campers ("how long are you going to be running that thing???")in the campground scenario we usually reference. Unless you could go for a short drive when the need arose? We have run our generator (after moving well out of the campground area) for about 15-20 minutes to brew coffee. How long will the Sprinter have to run at high idle to replenish a few hundred amp hours, for example?

[Mike]

Originally Posted by booster

I looked around and he had that Roadtrek for sale a bunch of places over last couple months. Started out asking $137K. In a lot of the other ads he said he wasn't a dealer, so the question is how an individual gets a "new" e-trek to sell? Would be interesting to see the Carfax or other history on it.

The 20% of sounds reasonable, as we have heard for years that if you can get 18% off a current or just passed year model, you are doing very well.

FWIW, he also sells Florida Horse Properties ....first entry in the list - seller's name may be Travis John?
http://www.buyhorseproperties.com/CT-FLORIDA.htm