Super Steer

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by booster

Re the track bar. I did a little reading and very similar discussions are happening in quite a few places, with no real life application testing that I saw yet.


One place mentioned something that is very true for track arm of this type, and that is the fact that is should be as long as possible to reduce the arc it travels in. The shorter the bar is the more lateral movement it causes during up and down motion from bumps, thus creating the problem it is supposed to be fixing. From the pic we saw earlier, it appears the bar of discussion is quite short.


It would be a very interesting test to see how much the axle moves laterally when the van is jacked up with axle hanging loose. I have done that test on my big old Buick Roadmaster wagon that uses coil springs, trailing arms, and a track bar. The rear axle in it moves about 3/8", so substantial.


I also think that the benefit from the track bar may turn out to be very dependent on the spring shape and location for individual vans. The closer the centerline of the axle is to the line between the leaf spring mounts, the less able the axle will able to exert the force needed to move over. The springs are not going to bend sideways, and neither will the front eye, so only the shackle might be moving over a bit. If the van has very high arch springs, or a block lift, on it, the axle centerline could be considerably below the line between the spring mounts. The leverage will put a big twisting force on the rubber bushing in the mounts and also likely be able to twist the springs. This could allow the axle to move a lot more than it would if nearer the connecting line. In this case the track bar would likely be of much more benefit. Of interest is that on our Chevy, the rear shackles are aimed up, not down like we all used to see in the leaf spring cars, and this places the axle centerline closer to the connecting line between the mounts.

Way beyond my technical skills.... however, these guys at Super Steer are experts..and they developed the trac bar specifically for the Sprinter 3500 like mine...

And, I imagine that they were pretty confident that it would work.. BUT, they told me that it was important to do all three solutions at once to be EFFECTIVE....

At first I thought just do the shocks..but, they said to address all of my concerns.. doing the complete solution was the answer here...the whole is greater than the sum of the parts in this case.

Probably different on the Chevy...than the Mercedes.... every situation is different...the Super Steer folks probably have a slightly different designed solution for your vehicle...

Look, anyone who has been in business for 57 years likely knows what they're doing... would you not agree??? 1961 is a very long time ago....I imagine there's plenty of people on this forum who weren't even born before 1961....

Finally, I'm taking the RV back across the USA this fall...I'll let you know...the great thing about us Class B folks is that we actually go longer distances than most Class A people..who get maybe 10 MPG if they're lucky..

[Boxster1971]

Like booster I did some searching on using a track bar with leaf springs. Lots of discussions about this topic on various Jeep and 4x4 forums. Consensus seems to be if the leaf spring shackles are weak in stopping lateral movement then a track bar will help. That makes sense to me, but I'm not sure that is a problem on a Sprinter 3500 as the shackles are very beefy.

On the down side they can cause binding in the rear suspension. But the Sprinter 3500 rear doesn't have a lot of suspension travel that would likely cause a problem.

Looking forward to hearing more about the results after OP has them installed and reports results.


- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Like booster I did some searching on using a track bar with leaf springs. Lots of discussions about this topic on various Jeep and 4x4 forums. Consensus seems to be if the leaf spring shackles are weak in stopping lateral movement then a track bar will help. That makes sense to me, but I'm not sure that is a problem on a Sprinter 3500 as the shackles are very beefy.

On the down side they can cause binding in the rear suspension. But the Sprinter 3500 rear doesn't have a lot of suspension travel that would likely cause a problem.

Looking forward to hearing more about the results after OP has them installed and reports results.


- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream

Mike,

I'll let you know... when I can...

Here's the thing...I know a lot of you are MORE technical than I am.. I appreciate
that..which is why I reached out to these guys at Super Steer....

I'm sure there's many ways to solve problems and if you have ample funds for the "air suspension" which in my view is complete overkill for this van...and money is no object..go for it... although I'm not sure about the outcome of this either...

As far as the upgrades.. if you have questions..call Super Steer and talk with Dave.. he's part of the team that developed the trac bar..his number is 541-955-0769..he can better explain all of this to you or anyone else...

Do I think it was worth the money I spent.for all of the upgrades, absolutely.. I can already feel the difference...
I think for the amount of money spent..it was a well engineered dollars solution...
Anyone can throw extra money at anything...

When I talked with Super Steer.. they said it took them time to figure out how to make this work on the Sprinter because of the design of the vehicle.... Again..a specially modified part for this application...

I'm not the expert....they are...

[booster]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Like booster I did some searching on using a track bar with leaf springs. Lots of discussions about this topic on various Jeep and 4x4 forums. Consensus seems to be if the leaf spring shackles are weak in stopping lateral movement then a track bar will help. That makes sense to me, but I'm not sure that is a problem on a Sprinter 3500 as the shackles are very beefy.

On the down side they can cause binding in the rear suspension. But the Sprinter 3500 rear doesn't have a lot of suspension travel that would likely cause a problem.

Looking forward to hearing more about the results after OP has them installed and reports results.



- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream

Do the Sprinter shackles point up or down? Shackles have always been the weakest point of the system. Back in the day I welded a lot of reinforcing plates into the two bar type shackles for the parking lot racers. Doing that and urethane bushings was claimed to have helped.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by booster

Do the Sprinter shackles point up or down? Shackles have always been the weakest point of the system. Back in the day I welded a lot of reinforcing plates into the two bar type shackles for the parking lot racers. Doing that and urethane bushings was claimed to have helped.

Here's a couple of pictures....


My vehicle is a 2012 RS and pretty clean underneath...

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by booster

Do the Sprinter shackles point up or down? Shackles have always been the weakest point of the system. Back in the day I welded a lot of reinforcing plates into the two bar type shackles for the parking lot racers. Doing that and urethane bushings was claimed to have helped.

Shackles point up as in photos just posted by OP. Shackles are only at rear end of the leaf springs. The front of leaf springs are attached to a solid pivot point. Here is a parts diagram from the Sprinter parts catalog. It shows the relative length of the shackle.

FYI - the VB and Glide-Rite air suspensions have sizable track bars (a.k.a. Panhard rod) as they only pivot from the front mounting point.

[booster]

That is the more typical style we usually see, our Chevy is the other way with the shackle below the spring eye. I think nearly all use a single solid mount eye in the front. They are quite short and stout, so wouldn't expect them to move around much. That style of shackle can usually be made a little more rigid with a plate connecting the two sides, but really doesn't look like it would need it.


I just was looking through the Supersteer site a bit more thoroughly. They seem to make track bars for nearly everything, which is highly unusual, I think. I have never heard of anyone putting them on the Chevy, Ford, or Dodge vans but they make them for those applications and seem to be about the only ones that do.


I wonder how much side to side motion you get out of the axle moving compared to tire sidewall flexing over, which can be fairly large and amount.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by booster

That is the more typical style we usually see, our Chevy is the other way with the shackle below the spring eye. I think nearly all use a single solid mount eye in the front. They are quite short and stout, so wouldn't expect them to move around much. That style of shackle can usually be made a little more rigid with a plate connecting the two sides, but really doesn't look like it would need it.


I just was looking through the Supersteer site a bit more thoroughly. They seem to make track bars for nearly everything, which is highly unusual, I think. I have never heard of anyone putting them on the Chevy, Ford, or Dodge vans but they make them for those applications and seem to be about the only ones that do.




you wrote;


I wonder how much side to side motion you get out of the axle moving compared to tire sidewall flexing over, which can be fairly large and amount.

I just was looking through the Supersteer site a bit more thoroughly. They seem to make track bars for nearly everything, which is highly unusual, I think. I have never heard of anyone putting them on the Chevy, Ford, or Dodge vans but they make them for those applications and seem to be about the only ones that do.



Booster,


Doesn't really surprise me at they are manufactures and distributors for a large number of parts.. they don't just sell parts.


They host educational seminars and show up at a number of RV shows throughout the USA... Their reputation precedes them...MY local RV shop in LA seemed to know these guys real well and work with them all the time.


A Leisure Travel Van just like mine, a 2015 … 3500 model with 37,000 miles was getting new shocks when I was there.

http://rvlife.com/hendersons-celebrates-50-years/

[Boxster1971]

Since it's been raining here in Maryland for days I spent some more time reading about track bars this afternoon. Only ones really negative about them are some of the Jeep 4x4 folks. Makes sense because those vehicles probably don't need them. However lots of positive comments about track bars on both RV and Hotrod forums.

Still looking for some definitive test data. Like most suspension upgrades a lot of benefit is derived from owner perceptions under varying conditions.


- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Since it's been raining here in Maryland for days I spent some more time reading about track bars this afternoon. Only ones really negative about them are some of the Jeep 4x4 folks. Makes sense because those vehicles probably don't need them. However lots of positive comments about track bars on both RV and Hotrod forums.

Still looking for some definitive test data. Like most suspension upgrades a lot of benefit is derived from owner perceptions under varying conditions.


- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream

Hi Mike,

We just got back from a trip in the Central Coast... 200 miles or so from LA where we live... it was the last trip before the suspension upgrade. Rig just felt like it was a little floaty... if you know what I mean and every time we were anywhere going in and out of driveways, rough surfaces and uneven road conditions through intersections, the RV would pitch side to side and rattle everything.. That's all gone now.

I WONDER... how many people excluding maybe one person I already heard from.. has done a full AIR SUSPENSION and was willing to pay an estimated $7,500 to $10,000.. ??

I think, and maybe you might agree... that for the $3,050 including parts and labor... (actually the labor part of this was $780, which I think is very fair), I got a very decent deal and I'm happy with the results.

The RV shop told me that they didn't realize until after they quoted me the price that it was necessary to remove and reinstall my exhaust to get the trac bar and sway bar on my vehicle.. translates to extra time..

And, the found out that doing all this required a wheel alignment and they covered that cost .. another $140..

OK, maybe the 4 X 4 Jeeps don't need them... I imagine that someone gave them bad information...

But, these Sprinters are a whole other thing... I'm sure you saw the pictures I posted.

Also, from what I've read, these Koni FSD ( Frequency Selective Dampers) are pretty cutting edge tech...and they are lifetime guaranteed... not the labor though...

All in all, the tamping down of the harshness, better control over speed bumps and uneven road conditions and hopefully better tracking in windy conditions... ( have not had an opportunity to try that yet ), will all prove worthwhile.

AGAIN.... it would be interesting to hear from others out there on whether they would have ever considered the "air suspension" ... if they haven't done it already.. Of course, it's an option... but, at what price and it will never make your RV worth more..

And, no one .... including my friends at Super Steer think that an air suspension would have eliminated the vibrations and slight bounce for passengers in the rear bench seat... just not likely or possible on the Sprinter.

By the way, why don't you post a picture of your Airstream.. how many miles on it and I presume you're happy .. ?

--Mark

[booster]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Since it's been raining here in Maryland for days I spent some more time reading about track bars this afternoon. Only ones really negative about them are some of the Jeep 4x4 folks. Makes sense because those vehicles probably don't need them. However lots of positive comments about track bars on both RV and Hotrod forums.

Still looking for some definitive test data. Like most suspension upgrades a lot of benefit is derived from owner perceptions under varying conditions.


- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream

I have been doing some of the same, and finding similar information.


The one thing that I have seen repeatedly is people saying that the wind load hitting high on the RV is counteracted by the track bar so the rocking is reduced. That I just can't see happening as the track bar works against horizontal loads not any vertical like you get in rocking.


The the bigger, heavier, RVs we may be looking at very soft bushings in the spring eyes and shackles as they look for a smooth ride in most cases. A combination of soft bushings and heavy weight could make the track arm more of a benefit, especially after a few miles of wear on the bushings.


The hot rodders have always gone after more solid mountings in the rear like solid or urethane spring eyes and shackle bushings, as well as the reinforced shackles I mentioned earlier. I think a lot of the driving force was the low stance and bigger than stock tires in use then and through today, that can give almost no fender clearance, so any movement was bad.



I did go out and push on the side of the Chevy van as hard as I could, which was fairly hard because I could brace against the solid workbench. The only motion I could see was the tire sidewall flexing. The total motion was similar front and rear. I had leaned a stick on the leaf spring to the body to see if it would move and didn't see anything there. Of course cornering forces are going to be much higher, maybe wind also, but it sure looks like the tire flex would be the biggest side to side movement.


It is a very interesting topic, I think, and I sure wish someone had been doing some real side by side testing to get a bit more complete information.


I suppose the easiest test might be to have someone drive behind you and watch while you saw the steering wheel back and forth to see if the van rocks or moves over horizontally. With and without a track bar on the same test might tell you something.

[BBQ]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjyQDFcmA-I

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1

Hi Mike,

We just got back from a trip in the Central Coast... 200 miles or so from LA where we live... it was the last trip before the suspension upgrade. Rig just felt like it was a little floaty... if you know what I mean and every time we were anywhere going in and out of driveways, rough surfaces and uneven road conditions through intersections, the RV would pitch side to side and rattle everything.. That's all gone now.

I WONDER... how many people excluding maybe one person I already heard from.. has done a full AIR SUSPENSION and was willing to pay an estimated $7,500 to $10,000.. ??

[B][COLOR="RoyalBlue"]I think, and maybe you might agree... that for the $3,050 including parts and labor...

By the way, why don't you post a picture of your Airstream.. how many miles on it and I presume you're happy

Attaching a photo of my Airstream Interstate. It now has 100,000 miles and I'm happy with it. I've made some minor suspension mods. First Koni FSD Shocks on rear. Now Fox Shocks that are better. Also added Dunlop airbags to rear axle mostly to allow changing the ride height. They didn't help with the ride quality in back seats. The long Sprinters are very rough back there and I doubt anything short of full air suspension like VB or Glide-Rite will help much with that.



- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream

[Davydd]

Are you a shill for the Super Steer people? First you tell us they been in business since 1961 and then you tell us there is a extra cost for alignment and exhaust pipe alignment. Evidently they don't know much about Sprinters. It is very hard for me to understand since you continuously knock me about the cost of VB Air Suspension of which I deduce you are totally ignorant of.

I am at a B-Rally in Tennessee with 47 other B vans right now. At least 6 have VB Air Suspension including 4 Advanced RVs, a Travato and a DIY 2016 Sprinter from Ontario, Canada. They all seem to say it was worth it. Out of the 47, Super Steer didn't come up but one guy in a general discussion did ask about Sumo springs. You can go to B-Rally.org for a list of participants with a makes of models and from all over the country.

I am guessing you are an internet troll.

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by BBQ

Sure, if this is really worth $10,000 or so to you... go for it.

My 2012 RS doesn't ride as rough as the stock suspension in the video..

Here's the specs on the two vehicles, major differences are wheelbase and overall weight capacity.. very significant and of course, I have a diesel on the Mercedes chassis. ..

https://www.rvusa.com/rv-guide/2016-...turous-tr27896

https://www.rvusa.com/rv-guide/2017-...an-59g-tr30506

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Attaching a photo of my Airstream Interstate. It now has 100,000 miles and I'm happy with it. I've made some minor suspension mods. First Koni FSD Shocks on rear. Now Fox Shocks that are better. Also added Dunlop airbags to rear axle mostly to allow changing the ride height. They didn't help with the ride quality in back seats. The long Sprinters are very rough back there and I doubt anything short of full air suspension like VB or Glide-Rite will help much with that.



- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream

Nice rig

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by Boxster1971

Attaching a photo of my Airstream Interstate. It now has 100,000 miles and I'm happy with it. I've made some minor suspension mods. First Koni FSD Shocks on rear. Now Fox Shocks that are better. Also added Dunlop airbags to rear axle mostly to allow changing the ride height. They didn't help with the ride quality in back seats. The long Sprinters are very rough back there and I doubt anything short of full air suspension like VB or Glide-Rite will help much with that.



- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream

100,000 miles.. I sent you a private message ...

[Roadtrek Adventuous RS1]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Are you a shill for the Super Steer people? First you tell us they been in business since 1961 and then you tell us there is a extra cost for alignment and exhaust pipe alignment. Evidently they don't know much about Sprinters. It is very hard for me to understand since you continuously knock me about the cost of VB Air Suspension of which I deduce you are totally ignorant of.

I am at a B-Rally in Tennessee with 47 other B vans right now. At least 6 have VB Air Suspension including 4 Advanced RVs, a Travato and a DIY 2016 Sprinter from Ontario, Canada. They all seem to say it was worth it. Out of the 47, Super Steer didn't come up but one guy in a general discussion did ask about Sumo springs. You can go to B-Rally.org for a list of participants with a makes of models and from all over the country.

I am guessing you are an internet troll.

Of course you do.... I don't care..
The RV shop did the labor and installation.. to get the parts properly installed they had to remove and reinstall the exhaust on the Sprinter.. they said it had to do with it being a Roadtrek.. The RV shop recommended the alignment and did NOT charge me for it... professionals.. no charge for removing the exhaust either..

Just because I don't agree with you or your solution doesn't mean I'm a troll..
You can spend whatever you like on your RV... I'm just not spending an inordinate amount of money on mine, that's it.

And, by the way... I don't think there's only ONE WAY to solve this problem... apparently you do...

[GeorgeRa]

A few years ago I added 4 airbags to my 2 axles leaf springs on the 21’ Bigfoot trailer with the objectives to soften the suspension and to facilitate side to side levelling. Air pressure was critical, with 15 PSI being a sweet spot, as seen on the chart. Data was taken with an USB accelerometer on the same reasonably rough route. Too little air pressure didn’t do much and too much air pressure made the suspension harsher. Even in the rearview mirrors I noticed a different trailer behavior and there was no more flying stuff from opened drawers.

I think that tuning springs is a reasonable first step to improve RV suspension. As mentioned earlier cargo vans suspensions are designed by Mercedes for a variable load from 0 to full capacity, tuning them for a fixed RV conversion load should help.

My 144” passenger van come from the factory with soft suspension and I am perfectly fine with it. No complains about harshness on my rear sofa bed, granted it is short wheel base van and passenger vans have different suspension as far as I know.

[Boxster1971]

Thank George - nice to see some hard data in this discussion.


- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream