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Old 05-02-2015, 02:01 AM   #21
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

Yeah, if power is cheap and capacity is not an issue, the storage systems are a non-issue.

As a point of reference, at the last place I worked before retiring we would have a power spike of about 4X over normal between 6:50 and 7:10 in the morning as all the machinery was started up for production. Our electric rates were set by total KW used, and with a modifier for peak usage. By bringing a couple of people in earlier to stage the machinery starts over a longer period, we were able to reduce our electric bill considerably, even though we used the same total amount of power. A storage system to reduce peak draw would have been very good for us.
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Old 05-03-2015, 12:39 AM   #22
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

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The more I look into this, the more it is obvious that this is an off peak storage system. There is huge interest in industry in using this technology, because the big users can negotiate really low off peak rates with the local utilities. The more of these systems that go into service, the less peak power generation is needed, and the power companies really like lower peak requirements. There are currently all kinds of systems to store the power, from water pumped uphill, to heated water, to pressurized containers, etc, but the if the pure battery storage gets competitive, it is far less complicated and trouble free. My guess is that we will see lots more of this technology, and it will transfer to the RV applications.

The news channels and NPR are stating that very few electric companies adjust their rates based on time of day. There is no question this is made to be a compliment to solar. the price is incredibly cheap considering RVers are spending 10-20k on lithium. Unfortunately the rv market is too small for Tesla to consider.
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Old 05-03-2015, 02:33 AM   #23
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

Here is the first one of many that come up on a Google search

https://www.pacificpower.net/ya/po/otou/ooh.html

There are lots of places that do off peak pricing, as far as I know.

Here is the program for our local utility

http://mn.gov/puc/documents/pdf_files/014320.pdf
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Old 05-03-2015, 04:10 AM   #24
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

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Originally Posted by booster
Here is the first one of many that come up on a Google search

https://www.pacificpower.net/ya/po/otou/ooh.html

There are lots of places that do off peak pricing, as far as I know.

Here is the program for our local utility

http://mn.gov/puc/documents/pdf_files/014320.pdf
Yes some markets do it, but as NPR news reported the majority of markets do not charge like this. Elon Musk sits on the board of Solar City which his brothers run. This is clearly designed to compliment to solar.
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Old 05-03-2015, 01:26 PM   #25
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

From NPR

http://stateimpact.npr.org/texas/201...se-less-power/

From ABC

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=87865

From the Dept of Energy

http://energy.gov/energysaver/articl...ctricity-rates
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Old 05-03-2015, 08:32 PM   #26
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

Here is an article about what Tesla is predicting for savings gained by using the home battery. Of course it is their data, and they use probably the highest utility rate around. Still interesting, though.

http://money.cnn.com/2015/04/29/inve...attery/?iid=EL
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Old 05-03-2015, 11:18 PM   #27
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

I posted this on twitter and Tesla liked it. At least they know now.
"@elonmusk I would purchase a physically smaller battery pack for RVers, Tiny Homes and Cabins. Please make one."
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Old 05-03-2015, 11:38 PM   #28
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

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Originally Posted by eurovanman
I posted this on twitter and Tesla liked it. At least they know now.
"@elonmusk I would purchase a physically smaller battery pack for RVers, Tiny Homes and Cabins. Please make one."
Great stuff !
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Old 05-04-2015, 01:51 AM   #29
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

Totally cool, what did they actually say in response?

I would bet if Tesla built an RV battery pack it would have all the right charging, temp control, safety stuff, right on the money, but not be overly cheap I would be right in line for that product.
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Old 05-05-2015, 04:33 AM   #30
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

Ya'll are all missing the point. Considering the capacity and equipment included, this thing is really cheap. That is the breakthrough that the giga-factory is providing. And it's only the start. Wait until he's built 10 of these plants. Batteries are going to be as cheap as chips in a short time.


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Old 05-05-2015, 05:15 AM   #31
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

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Ya'll are all missing the point. Considering the capacity and equipment included, this thing is really cheap. That is the breakthrough that the giga-factory is providing. And it's only the start. Wait until he's built 10 of these plants. Batteries are going to be as cheap as chips in a short time.


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Well said. I feel the same. This is a game changer.
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Old 05-05-2015, 01:20 PM   #32
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

I've read the articles. I already have 10 kWh of lithium ion batteries in our B. Tesla is basically announcing a pre-prepared package at less than half the current price. Solar alone on a B could not charge the batteries. My 420 watts of solar on a perfect day will maybe recharge to compensate for the compressor refrigerator and parasitic energy loss. Just driving one hour with a second alternator or high idle charging one hour usually recharges the batteries completely for all the energy we normally use for everything.
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Old 05-05-2015, 02:31 PM   #33
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

If I did the calculations right, the Tesla 10K system comes in at about $4.70 per amp hour of 12.5 volt power. Mojovan bought a 900ah setup recently for about $5.70 per ah, so the Tesla is a good reduction in price, but still a long ways to go for most mainstream RVs. I don't know if it is more or less expensive to go be setup for 110 volt or 12 volt power with a big system, but I assume Tesla has to include a pretty good sized inverter of some sort. It does make one wonder if Tesla would do a higher than 12 volt storage system in an RV to minimize wire sizes and losses and such. Maybe with a 36 or 48 volt alternator and shore charger, and inverter.

I don't think anyone claimed that solar would be able to charge the Tesla bank in a B, the solar discussion was more about whether this was a home solar storing system or a home off peak power storing system.
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Old 05-05-2015, 02:34 PM   #34
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

If I did the calculations right, the Tesla 10K system comes in at about $4.70 per amp hour of 12.5 volt power. Mojovan bought a 900ah setup recently for about $5.70 per ah, so the Tesla is a good reduction in price, but still a long ways to go for most mainstream RVs. I don't know if it is more or less expensive to go be setup for 110 volt or 12 volt power with a big system, but I assume Tesla has to include a pretty good sized inverter of some sort. It does make one wonder if Tesla would do a higher than 12 volt storage system in an RV to minimize wire sizes and losses and such. Maybe with a 36 or 48 volt alternator and shore charger, and inverter.

I don't think anyone claimed that solar would be able to charge the Tesla bank in a B, the solar discussion was more about whether this was a home solar storing system or a home off peak power storing system.
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Old 05-05-2015, 04:22 PM   #35
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

Interesting article here:

http://cleantechnica.com/2014/10/13/...y-drop-100kwh/

They give raw material costs, what Tesla pays Panasonic now, and the tipping point of cost vs energy source desirability, as well as predicted future cost.
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Old 05-05-2015, 04:59 PM   #36
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

With Tesla going all in on this, I'm guessing this will help the entire market due to economies of scale. I'm sure if the demand is there, Tesla or someone will make a scaled down PowerWall that would be intended for auto/RV/marine use.

Of course, there is one problem. Lithium batteries are delicate. You can't just attach a number of solar charge controllers, a RV converter, a Battery Minder, and a Trik-L-Start, as well as loads. Well, you could, but you will learn quickly the meaning of "runaway thermal expansion" when it comes to those batteries. What is needed is a controller that does all the charging/discharging, similar to Davydd's SilverLeaf controller, whose biggest job is keeping his 800 Ah battery bank from going boom.

I'm hoping that we see cheaper lithium based battery controllers. Something that one can plug in standard RV lead-acid converters, solar charge controllers, battery loads, and so on... and can ensure that the batteries charge/discharge at the proper rate.
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Old 05-05-2015, 07:29 PM   #37
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

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but I assume Tesla has to include a pretty good sized inverter of some sort
An inverter is not included with the PowerWall, it costs an additional $2K or so.
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Old 05-05-2015, 08:40 PM   #38
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

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Quote:
Originally Posted by booster
but I assume Tesla has to include a pretty good sized inverter of some sort
An inverter is not included with the PowerWall, it costs an additional $2K or so.
That would run up the cost a bit Does it include the battery charger?
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Old 05-05-2015, 09:01 PM   #39
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

It appears that all the converting and charging and monitoring is done inside the box, so it is provided in the unit. It also says there is a liquid cooling system. I'd love to see a tear-down of this unit.

What is not included is a downstream inverter.

Note they are requiring professional installation by an electrician. I suppose this is required to ensure the 10 year warranty.
Probably this is hard-wired from the fuse panel to the box, and then return to the fuse panel via an inverter accessory. Seems a bit deceptive to me to market an all-in-one slick consumer type device, yet there is this expensive piece (inverter) omitted.
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Old 05-05-2015, 09:49 PM   #40
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Default Re: Tesla to announce new revolutionary product Apr 30

Quote:
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Seems a bit deceptive to me to market an all-in-one slick consumer type device, yet there is this expensive piece (inverter) omitted.
I think that this is just more evidence that they see this primarily as an accessory to a solar installation. I think I saw a quote somewhere where they said something to the effect of "solar customers will usually already have an inverter." For this reason it makes sense not to include one.

As for price, when comparing cost with the alternatives, don't forget that this package includes a (presumably very sophisticated) battery management system, including liquid temperature management. Judging by the amount of effort that Tesla put into this issue in their vehicles, they clearly believe that this is important for maximizing battery life. I suspect that the pioneers in RV use of lithium are going to come up short in this department--no 10 year warranties. As Davydd has pointed out, it may not matter in practice for many of us, but it is a different matter in home infrastructure.

The other issue is fire safety. this is another area where Tesla knows what they are doing. Let's all hope that none of the RV manufacturers (who are basically just guessing in both safety and battery life) ever have a nasty incident.
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