Carado Banff

[Tami2]

I did ask for a screen door for the Banff. Hymer is providing one but it is not the sliding door. Apparently because of where the cabinet is, it won’t fit. The one that does fit, Velcro’s around the door I think. I haven’t seen it yet. I’m not picky. As long as it keeps the bugs out, I’m good.

Glad you are finding the information helpful.

[Ron J. Moore]

Sounds like te screening used in RT's - they work! Ron

[jharu]

Call me crazy, but I drove 250 miles this weekend to see the Banff for myself, and inded it was an eye-opening experience.
I was enthusiastic about the Banff because of its overall length and floor plan, not to mention the GU, but seeing it in clearview took the wind out of my sails.

Make no mistake - this is indeed a recycled Sunlight. Those that did not sell with Camping World have been fitted with a GU and a Lithium battery or two and they are trying to sell it for $70K.

I mean, if you want to keep the cost low, give me less - but whatever you sell should have some notion of quality. The Banff is outright indecent.
I saw a YouTube video by an outfit called rollinontv (

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEcsjxUSPjk

), and there the CEO of Erwin Hymer says that "in the RV business... there are no staple guns... everything is highly engineered... fit perfectly".
The Banff is exactly the opposite of that statement.

But let's begin with the good.
The floorplan is the same as the Sunlight, and that is excellent.
The storage on the passenger side is huge and uninterrupted, but you know that already.
And there is the simple but highly functional rear bath - as I had expected.
And yes, there are 2 lithium units (see pix)
And yes, some of the things in the bath have been fixed - thanks to a scathing video review by ViralVirgo (

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-WzUs5IqtEo

) we are all grateful for that.
The funny shower door has been replaced with pleats that don't really close, and there is a big gap between the shower pan and the pleats.
The curtain rod does not have cuts as in the ViralVirgo video, but the quality of the shower curtain continues to be abysmal.




Everything else that ViralVirgo complained about remains unfixed.
The reason why I call it indecent quality is because they have not even bothered to vacuum up the shavings, wipe the inside of the shelves, etc. ... Look for yourself






There is no "lip" or flange holding up the side walls of the cabinet, and I measured - they deflect a full 2".
I was able put my finger in the gaps, and there is no insulation. I could touch bare metal.
There is some "cushion foam" that is shoved into the most egrigious gaps to prevent rattles.

Unlike the Aktiv, the cabinets are not held up by struts, and they bang into the ceiling.
Maybe the hinges were not tightened enough, and they all kept falling back.
Look at the control panel - it is warped.
There was an Axion right next to it - and I thought that was shoddy quality - but compared to this, it was a jewel!


The particle board that is used to extend the bed is acceptable, but my Casita has better support.
Since this is an entry-level van, I was not expecting the cushions to be super-duper, but they were good enough.

This van is unliveable because it does not have a proper vent fan. The ceiling fan is the same as the bathroom fan, and could not exhaust the air properly with the window open in 80F weather.


There is a lot of hard black plastic (acceptable because of the low cost-point), but the driver's chair does not swivel, and constantly scratches the plastic.


The suburban stove is acceptable.
The fridge isn't bad at all, but it is not a NORCOLD that I saw on the Aktiv and Zion.

And selling a $70K vehicle with no backup camera or parking sensors is just nuts!
But then again, I am OK with an underperforming spec sheet, but bad manufacturing really gets to me. Inattention to detail and the inability to go a good job is a kind of cheating in my opinion

But all in all,

German quality control? That is a laugh!
Or else, the Germans have really lost it!

I remember, Toyota was on the verge of becoming the world #1 auto-manufacturer and they had the stacked floormat scandal.
VW was on the verge of becoming #1 and then they had the emissions scandal.
The Banff/Axion story clearly a case of rolling out too many vehicles too fast, or getting rid of inventory.

I would not touch this thing with a bargepole. It left a bad impression on me.

For $70K, I'd much, much rather buy a Winnebago 59K. The fit, finish and engineering seems a lot better, but then again they have only a 1 Yr warranty.

[jharu]

I have a question for @wincrasher.
You have been warning about the bad value of some Hymer products and you have been a Winnebago Travato fan.
Did you buy some kind of extended warranty to match the 6 year warranty of a RoadTrek?

[jharu]

Oh yes, I probably forgot to mention this - the plastic wall of the shower is screwed in at points very far from the edge.
Consequently, it warps and the adhesive has given way - and the moisture gets right in!
Or, it is possible that the template used to cut the bath wall does not match the particle-board wall.
A fine example of a "highly-engineered" product

[jharu]

Here are the bed supports.
Sorry - the pix did not upload earlier

[BBQ]

.

I haven't seen this thing since the 1960s

[Melplu24]

I don't get it because that does not look like the banff I saw at the rv show. Even the pictures tami2 posted showed the driver side seat spun around but in the one you looked at you say it does not. It almost seems as though camper world is selling something way different then I saw.

[Tami2]

Agreed. This looks like a totally different product than was at the RV show. That is completely unacceptable. Then again, even at the RV show prices, they weren’t selling for $70K. Definightly higher than that.
It looks to me like this is a recycled Sunlight that they put the Banff name on.
There is a possibility that the one at the RV show was cherry picked.
I ordered a Banff, and if comes in like this, it will be completely unacceptable because that is not the quality of the product I ordered and I have pictures of what I ordered. Both seats swiveled too.
My Banff won’t be in until the end of the year. I will definitely come on here and post the pictures of my Banff when it is delivered.

[jharu]

Originally Posted by Tami2

Agreed. This looks like a totally different product than was at the RV show. That is completely unacceptable. Then again, even at the RV show prices, they weren’t selling for $70K. Definitely higher than that.
It looks to me like this is a recycled Sunlight that they put the Banff name on.
There is a possibility that the one at the RV show was cherry picked.
I ordered a Banff, and if comes in like this, it will be completely unacceptable because that is not the quality of the product I ordered and I have pictures of what I ordered. Both seats swiveled too.
My Banff won’t be in until the end of the year. I will definitely come on here and post the pictures of my Banff when it is delivered.

Soooooooo - my theory is right after all.
They must have had a few left-over Camping World Sunlights that they are getting rid of by slapping 2 Lithium units and selling for $70K

Your Banff could be completely re-engineered, and you are probably fortunate.
And yes, the units that go to a RV show are cherry-picked.

I have also noticed that there are some VLOGs on YouTube where some prospective RV owner "checks out" a model and raves about it, while giving a standard walk-through on some other model.
At this point, I am almost inclined to believe that "We are the Russos" are sponsored by Hymer. Which in itself is not a bad thing, because they are "beta" testing the product for you.
As a QA person, I must differentiate between "features (functional quality)", "initial quality" and "non-functional quality (usability, consistency, debugability/support, etc.)" or "standardization and reliability".
In the "sponsored" VLOGs - nobody ever talks about the non-functional quality of a product.

So, my takeaway from this is that I learned far more in this thread than I ever learned on YouTube.
I hope readers and contributors to this thread like @Tami2 will continue to share the true nature of the product.
And yes, the Banff is not quite ready for the real world.

At this stage, if one really does not need Lithiums, one could consider the Travato 59K if it is not too long (as in my case).

[jharu]

Originally Posted by Melplu24

I don't get it because that does not look like the banff I saw at the rv show. Even the pictures tami2 posted showed the driver side seat spun around but in the one you looked at you say it does not. It almost seems as though camper world is selling something way different then I saw.

Funny you mention that.
When I walked into the van, the firs thing I saw where all the scuff marks.
Some insensitive shopper, I thought.
So, I asked the guy in the Roadtrek hat and shirt to turn the driver's seat around. It did not, and he admitted that all those marks are from people trying to force the chair to turn fully


I looked on YouTube and there is this marketing video that even on a Zion the seat does not fully swivel!
[Of course, take it with a bucket of salt]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2Ml-2y357k

[mumkin]

Here is my interpretation having followed Hymer since their purchase of Roadtrek. The Sunlight sales at Camping World were some odd experiment rather tossed out to see if the market really wanted a cheap basic Class B... with a little tech thrown in.

The Banffs seen at the shows are NOT Sunlights rebuilt into a Banff. Most of the Sunlights have lithium batteries anyway. The Carado Banff was made for the Canadian market - same rig... same floor plan... but with a few of the worst bugs worked out. I'm guessing that there won't be any more Sunlights built (could be wrong), and that all built from now on will be Carado Banff. They are slowly fixing issues that many videos and internet posts have discussed. But at this point, I would consider the Sunlight and the Banff as a rather phase 1/phase 2 of the same unit.

Do not confuse the Sunlight or the Carado Banff and Axion with the Hymer Activ. The quality is not even close and definitely not comparable. There is a reason that the Sunlight and Carado products don't carry the Hymer name. They are considered different brands owned by Hymer... (in Europe, Hymer owns many different brands so owns all these different names) The quality of the Activ is similar to the Roadtrek.

And yes, the Russos are connected with Hymer... and nothing wrong with that. I have found their videos to be honest and often entertaining. I wouldn't consider them Beta testers as they are hardly the first to have an Activ. But one of their 'jobs' is to show the internet world what the full time life in a small Class B is like. (they started out in a Class A)

The driver seat not turning all the way around seems to occur on many of the small Class B units. In my Chevy based, it is because the steering wheel is in the way. Most of the show units will have damage because many of them have been to numerous shows.

[dougbaty]

While driving back from Auburn CA yesterday (10/23/17), I stopped by Camping World to see a Sunlight for myself. They had one on the lot. I am happy to report that the fit/finish quality was much better than as seen in the YouTube videos. Hymer has improved with practice, as those earliest examples were suitable only to test/demonstrate the floorplan/features.

This new 2018 CW unit was virtually identical to a Banff I saw last week in a LaMesa RV show. Both included the following options: 2 lithium batteries, UHG, 2 solar panels (200watt total), rear trailer hitch, and oddly, the same chrome wheels. The only difference I could see is that the Sunlight has blonde cabinets in place of a dark walnut look (all cabinet are synthetic wood). Looking under the tailgate I didn't see a low-hanging drain pipe, so I guess both have a macerating pump. Spare tire not included. Both have 2 tiny exhaust fans, though there is roof-space for a Fantastic fan.

The specs of both are the same and the prices are similar. CW discounts this Sunlight's $84K list price to $75K. LaMesa doesn't list prices on 2018 models, which puts CW a step ahead, as does their wide distributions/service network. RV warranty on both Sunlight and Banff is 2 years.

Both models are based on a 20 foot chassis and are a lower-priced alternative to the Aktiv. I think Hymer's plan for increasing sales volume through CW is a good one. It will be interesting to see if Winnebago responds with a shorter, more high-tech Travato.

Hey, I just noticed this CW Sunlight was a model V2, not V1. Both are available as 2018s with the V2 showing more options (solar, chrome wheels). Other than that, I don't know what the new designation means.

DougB, Sacramento

[dougbaty]

Note: The Roseville CW Sunlight V2 had soft creamy-white leatherette upholstery in place of black fabric. Rather nice. Perhaps that is one difference between the V1 model and the V2. Also this V2 had a trailer hitch, so I didn't see a big black drain pipe crossing under the rear bumper (also noted above).
DougB

[jharu]

Originally Posted by mumkin

Do not confuse the Sunlight or the Carado Banff and Axion with the Hymer Activ. The quality is not even close and definitely not comparable. There is a reason that the Sunlight and Carado products don't carry the Hymer name. They are considered different brands owned by Hymer... (in Europe, Hymer owns many different brands so owns all these different names) The quality of the Activ is similar to the Roadtrek.

I agree that the Banff quality is not comparable.
But caveat emptor - buyer beware.
I have seen a vehicle called "Carado Banff" and I have been lucky enough to take a few pictures to make a note for myself.

From what I have seen and posted, the quality is outright unconscionable.
If you look at the fit/finish of some of my observations, I am quite convinced that the Banff is a sunlight with a better shower rail and 2 Lithiums

I would definitely like to see the fit and finish pictures taken by other forum members (especially those units that were priced above $70K) before I change my opinion.

[jharu]

Originally Posted by dougbaty

Note: The Roseville CW Sunlight V2 had soft creamy-white leatherette upholstery in place of black fabric. Rather nice. Perhaps that is one difference between the V1 model and the V2. Also this V2 had a trailer hitch, so I didn't see a big black drain pipe crossing under the rear bumper (also noted above).
DougB

Does the V2 have the same terrible fit and finish in the cabinets/walls/bathroom to what I have posted?

Thanks for the observations

[jharu]

Originally Posted by dougbaty

This new 2018 CW unit was virtually identical to a Banff I saw last week in a LaMesa RV show. Both included the following options: 2 lithium batteries, UHG, 2 solar panels (200watt total), rear trailer hitch, and oddly, the same chrome wheels.
DougB, Sacramento

Oh! So the Banff is indeed a re-badged Sunlight!

Interestingly enough, if you go to the LaMesa RV site, New Motorhomes & RVs For Sale - Huge Selection of New Motorhomes! you can click on one of the images, and then "view MSRP" and sometimes they list the discount

[jharu]

Originally Posted by mumkin

The driver seat not turning all the way around seems to occur on many of the small Class B units.

I went to See Grins again and checked out the Winnebago Travato 59K.
They are selling it for approx $73K, which is close enough to the Banff, but the manufacturing quality is miles ahead.

I did exactly the same tests that I did on the Banff.
a) The driver's seat does swivel 100% on the Travato
b) Could not stick my nail into the joints. None of the cabinet walls deflect. The cabinet hinges held up. Unlike the huge wardrobe knobs in the Axion and Banff, there is a smaller chance of bumping into them at night.

Well, all-in-all, my takeaway was that Hymer was capitalizing on the "high tech" (Lithium and GU) - so unless you really upgrade to an Aktiv, buying a Banff (or even an Axion) could lead to some regrets down the road.

BTW - I asked about the poor cabinetry and flimsy shower hanger - and those were not covered by the 2 year warranty. That was considered "acceptable initial quality"

I guess I would buy a Banff for $50K and fix up all the fit and finish issues myself.
But at this time I am afraid, the "proudly made in Canada" decal does not do justice

[jharu]

BTW - those of you who saw the Banff at the other RV shows (not CW or La Mesa) - did you notice if the Banff had 2 termination points?
The one I saw had 2 black valve gates - one right below the kitchen galley and one 3/4 of the way to the back - under the macerating unit

[mumkin]

Actually the Banff and the Sunlight appeared at about the same time. The first ones were the Sunlight in US at CW... and in Canada, it came out as the Carado Banff within a month or two.

When the Carado website appeared, it had the Axion and the Banff... and on the Banff page it said... sold only in Canada.

It seems odd that they are selling the same unit under two names in the US now...