Here goes first attempt using DIY SST to get the spring in, looks intimidating. I am sure the bottom tail is in its grove, but can not be 100% sure on the top as I cannot see it. My heavy chain will not fit between coils, lighter chain does. I was hoping to use very heavy straps but my tow truck driver budd is in rehab. I had to purchase a bull pin to align holes and cut it down as it was too long.
I assume no compressor in?
I know you mentioned the spring length, but don't know what the stock spring is to compare.
If the are the same or the new one is shorter than stock , I think that as log as the chain is on it you would be way ahead by doing the "normal" no compressor install. That way is by far the quickest and easiest to do, and the chain makes it safe.
All you do is put the arm in with just the pivot bolts and put the spring into the tower and hold it up while jacking up the arm by the ball joint area. If the tail of the spring bottom coil can be pushed into the pocket of the arm in the early arm lifting, just hold it by a bit and keep lifting the arm. Once the arm is up bit more, the spring tail will be captive and you can lift the rest of the way up until you can connect the lower balljoint and remove the chain. Put on the rest of the parts on to have the upper arm in place and the jack can be removed.
Thanks for the response. The new Moog spring 81012 is slightly shorter than the OE spring.
Putting the spring in with the arms installed looks like the easy way to do it and is the way many on the internet use. Are they installing the same Moog spring, is it the same generation van as mine? I struggled with it and gave up. It may be doable but not by me.
I am slowly raising the spring, I have to walk away from it as it keeps popping, creaking, snapping and making other uncomfortable
sounds. I did notice over lunch the arm raised about 3/8" with no jacking.
Putting the spring in with the arms installed looks like the easy way to do it and is the way many on the internet use. Are they installing the same Moog spring, is it the same generation van as mine? I struggled with it and gave up. It may be doable but not by me.
I am slowly raising the spring, I have to walk away from it as it keeps popping, creaking, snapping and making other uncomfortable
What are they doing to get the rear pivots to line up? That is what I on our model and Marko on your model had trouble with as the lower arm flops around because of the ball joint.
That pic looks normal for that method. and with a chain would be safe.
That pic looks normal for that method. and with a chain would be safe.
I must not have stated that right, all the online videos are showing installing the spring with the LCA bolts installed and jacking from the ball joint area.
Getting the holes lined up is not going to be easy, made worse by my jack is biting into and distorting the wood. On some of the forums they talk about using ratcheting straps to help align holes.
Getting the holes lined up is not going to be easy, made worse by my jack is biting into and distorting the wood. On some of the forums they talk about using ratcheting straps to help align holes.
Installing the spring this way feels much safer. Doing it on wood over a shell parking spot is not the way to do it! Rear of control arm goes into mounting bracket easy, I measured the old and new one and they are within a couple hundredths of each other. Front of arm and bracket are a bear, I cleaned up the mounting bracket, there is no crud or anything to impede installation. I also measured new vs old and again within a couple hundredths of each other.. I would go after it with a sledge hammer but the service manual says not to beat on parts when installing.
I am going to stop and modify my SST. The uprights are too wide and not tall enough and hang up when I can almost line up the holes, they are 3 1/2" wide and 3" tall to the top, not the bottom of the circle. I will try 2 1/2" wide by 4 inch tall. The radius of the circle is 2 1/8"
Picture is intentionally not clear, I can't see that good and the welds are horrible LOL
Picture is intentionally not clear, I can't see that good and the welds are horrible LOL
Attachments
Looking at the pic where the second arm won't go into the frame shows that you are very close, but the spring force just pushes it back out, I think.
If you had a functional compressor, you could have it in place in less than 30 minutes, based on my testing.
All you would would be to compress the spring to take the load off the arm, set the end of the compressr rod on a block to push it into the tower all way, lift the low side end into place and install the bolt.
How about this, as I really want you to be able to finish this and it will be tough the way you are now.
Three options to ponder.
1. Order a new complete compressor and use it to finish. Send me the rod which I would like to have and I will send you 1/2 the cost of the compressor.
2. I will order a complete compressor and send you the plate you are missing and you send me 1/2 the cost.
3. I send you one of my plates to use and when you are done you send it back with your unbent (hopefully) rod. Need max couple of months time frame on this option as I may need it to finish my stuff in the spring.
If you had a functional compressor, you could have it in place in less than 30 minutes, based on my testing.
All you would would be to compress the spring to take the load off the arm, set the end of the compressr rod on a block to push it into the tower all way, lift the low side end into place and install the bolt.
How about this, as I really want you to be able to finish this and it will be tough the way you are now.
Three options to ponder.
1. Order a new complete compressor and use it to finish. Send me the rod which I would like to have and I will send you 1/2 the cost of the compressor.
2. I will order a complete compressor and send you the plate you are missing and you send me 1/2 the cost.
3. I send you one of my plates to use and when you are done you send it back with your unbent (hopefully) rod. Need max couple of months time frame on this option as I may need it to finish my stuff in the spring.
The spring is about 15" long the upper spring mount covers about 5" of the upper spring, I believe I will need to keep the upper plate below the bottom of the spring mount or risk not being able to get the plate out.
I have been thinking, I might be able to use what I have in the spring compressor by installing the large plate near the top of the spring and installing the small plate under the lower control arm bracket. I would have to get the jack and assorted wood blocking and such moved around. I would be jacking the LCA passenger side from the driver side.
There is another option, when the dust settles on this shipping debacle and I have completed this job, I will send you the forcing screw. I do have a couple feelers out looking for a large plate but think it is very unlikely one will show up.
I have been thinking, I might be able to use what I have in the spring compressor by installing the large plate near the top of the spring and installing the small plate under the lower control arm bracket. I would have to get the jack and assorted wood blocking and such moved around. I would be jacking the LCA passenger side from the driver side.
There is another option, when the dust settles on this shipping debacle and I have completed this job, I will send you the forcing screw. I do have a couple feelers out looking for a large plate but think it is very unlikely one will show up.
Got my DIY SST modified, seems to fit correctly and not hang up on anything. I removed the chain and installed the OTC spring compressor as best I could. Looks like front part of the LCA bushing is lower than the rear so will require a 2nd jack, I will use a bottle jack. Spring is forcing the LCA towards the passenger side of the vehicle, so holes may be difficult to line up. I am leery of putting top plate any higher in the coil spring, afraid it will stick and be inaccessible
when trying to remove. I did have to drive a wedge in the coil spring to insert the top plate as it would stick. Then I ran out of energy and put things away. Have a endoscopy tomorrow so will lose a couple days.
Service manual says to use pry bar to line up holes. I have no idea what they are calling a pry bar and there is no place to use as a pivot point for a pry bar and no place to hook up ratchet straps as my LCA needs to be pushed out from the center or pulled from the outside. I was thinking port a power. Thinking and going through my meager treasures I came up with this. Had to sacrifice my 6 foot breaker bar extension and an old RV stabilizer but worked like a charm and the bolts are in with little effort. About 2 feet of 1 1/4 inch pipe the stabilizer, some welding. My welds are horrible but they held!
Markopolo mentions user error in getting a plate stuck. My top plate was stuck and took a good 2 hours to get the thing out, thought I was going to have to remove the spring again! I cannot recommend the OTC 7045B with the MOOG 81012.
Where to start? Lots of new parts including new front coil springs. Horrible job to do, got the pass side done and on to the driver side. I opted to not use the OTC spring compressor as it took way too much effort to get it out on the passenger side. 2 ratchet straps, 1 come along and 4 hydraulic jacks to get it in place. I did gain almost 1 1/2 inch lift measured from ground through middle of tire to wheel well with the new Moog springs 81012.
There is a sweet spot getting the lower control arm back in, the arm needs to be almost parallel with the ground and go straight in. This cannot be done with the steering knuckle in place.
I do not have the strength to torque the lower control arm bolts but pre loalded them as best I could and will have the alignment place torque them for me.
Found a highly recommended alignment shop and headed over for my 7th alignment in 3 years. $40 to torque the nuts and $179 for an alignment. Head for the highway and van handles poorly %^$##. What do I do now?
Find a big truck shop and they tell me they are not interested, I tell them I do not care what it costs and they tell me to bring the van in. No big fancy rack 2 round things on the floor, 4 things they hang on the wheels and a computer screen. Tech is friendly but speaks almost no English, no one in the shop speaks English! Works on the RT for almost 2 hours and cannot get it into spec. I am sitting in the work bay watching and he is struggling. He takes another 20 minutes or so and does the best job he can to show me what is wrong. When he attempts to adjust the castor on the pass side when he gets the upper control arm front adjuster to max outward position the castor is still negative. This is my interpation of him pointing at screen and moving things around, so may not be 100% accurate. He could not communicate with me how to fix other than the upper control arm needs to be 1/4" longer,so not sure where to go from here. He refused to charge me anything because he could not fix it! I gave him $40 for lunch!
This is very hard to understand, 7 alignments before someone explained to me what the problem is!!!!
Headed for the highway and this is the best it has handled in a long time. still not right but better.
At the moment I am mulling over wheel spacers, adjustable ball joints, frame inspection and control arm bracket modification. Of course I know nothing about any of these and will be looking on the net and another shop for a 2nd opinion.
There is a sweet spot getting the lower control arm back in, the arm needs to be almost parallel with the ground and go straight in. This cannot be done with the steering knuckle in place.
I do not have the strength to torque the lower control arm bolts but pre loalded them as best I could and will have the alignment place torque them for me.
Found a highly recommended alignment shop and headed over for my 7th alignment in 3 years. $40 to torque the nuts and $179 for an alignment. Head for the highway and van handles poorly %^$##. What do I do now?
Find a big truck shop and they tell me they are not interested, I tell them I do not care what it costs and they tell me to bring the van in. No big fancy rack 2 round things on the floor, 4 things they hang on the wheels and a computer screen. Tech is friendly but speaks almost no English, no one in the shop speaks English! Works on the RT for almost 2 hours and cannot get it into spec. I am sitting in the work bay watching and he is struggling. He takes another 20 minutes or so and does the best job he can to show me what is wrong. When he attempts to adjust the castor on the pass side when he gets the upper control arm front adjuster to max outward position the castor is still negative. This is my interpation of him pointing at screen and moving things around, so may not be 100% accurate. He could not communicate with me how to fix other than the upper control arm needs to be 1/4" longer,so not sure where to go from here. He refused to charge me anything because he could not fix it! I gave him $40 for lunch!
This is very hard to understand, 7 alignments before someone explained to me what the problem is!!!!
Headed for the highway and this is the best it has handled in a long time. still not right but better.
At the moment I am mulling over wheel spacers, adjustable ball joints, frame inspection and control arm bracket modification. Of course I know nothing about any of these and will be looking on the net and another shop for a 2nd opinion.
That alignment look similar to what we had before the modification. Low on caster, which is directional stability, and slightly negative camber on the right side that isn't right but will not make it horrible.
Of interest now is where the cams are set in their range of travel. You might be able to get pix now that you are higher. From there we should be able to tell if camber bushings will be able to take of the issues you have. This exactly what my first alignment and cam positions will be used for, to determined if I need to put in the camber bushings when I get to the point I can get back on it in hopefully 7 weeks more to all clear and shoulder and bicep.
Of interest now is where the cams are set in their range of travel. You might be able to get pix now that you are higher. From there we should be able to tell if camber bushings will be able to take of the issues you have. This exactly what my first alignment and cam positions will be used for, to determined if I need to put in the camber bushings when I get to the point I can get back on it in hopefully 7 weeks more to all clear and shoulder and bicep.
If I understand you right I have already installed new upper and lower control arm bushings. Also has the caster camber kit installed. Only 7 weeks left, piece of cake.
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All the control arm bushings were OK so didn't do them at all. I did get one new lower arm to test if the original arm was problem with our setup by being bent. It wasn't bent and identical in location of the new one so I reused it because it had the better gusher bearing balljoint. The uppers were left original for the testing, but I have two new arms with the good balljoints in them to put on if I need to. The plan would be to put the camber bushing in the new upper arms and that way if I need to change back I can just sway arms in the future. When I first started this gig I had no idea what all I would need so I covered as many bases as I could ahead of time.
Did you see my PM?
Just saw and answered PM. I am 77 so anytime I take something apart I replace everything. Might be a waste of money now but may not be able to do again in 6 months or 2 years!
Brief update. Highly recommended alignment shop does not have a clue, sent me out of there with horrible alignment. Caster way off. Did not even go back and debate with them.
Did the appointment at big shop and have an idea what is wrong.
Find a shop that does alignments and has a frame machine. Went in and explained I did not want work done I need a diagnosis and estimate. Showed up day early for appointment and had to go back the next day. They charge $50 for diagnosis and estimate, which is fair I guess.
Someone screwed up and tech worked on van from 8:30 till 2,, I do not know when they figured out I was only there for a diagnosis! Not a happy group. Anyway they claimed they could not give me a printout. Van drives the best it has in long time, still not right. Took to local place today and had alignment checked and still caster is way off!!
I have no idea what to do next.
Did the appointment at big shop and have an idea what is wrong.
Find a shop that does alignments and has a frame machine. Went in and explained I did not want work done I need a diagnosis and estimate. Showed up day early for appointment and had to go back the next day. They charge $50 for diagnosis and estimate, which is fair I guess.
Someone screwed up and tech worked on van from 8:30 till 2,, I do not know when they figured out I was only there for a diagnosis! Not a happy group. Anyway they claimed they could not give me a printout. Van drives the best it has in long time, still not right. Took to local place today and had alignment checked and still caster is way off!!
I have no idea what to do next.
Toe would be easy to get in, and camber not all that bad so probably within easy adjustment.
Depending on the cam settings for these readings, it appears that you need camber bushings in the upper arms to get the caster in range, preferably 4.5*+. The current settings are going to make van very wanderyl, I think.
Most shops have no idea of how to adjust the older setups, but they are very happy to take your money.
I replaced all the upper and lower control arm bushings on both sides with ACDelco gold. With no one able to get this into alignment I have to suspect something must be wrong and only thought I have at the moment is frame is out of wack.
Shop # 5 or 6 mentioned moving the holes in the lower control arms. At the time I did not understand what he was talking about. Tech #8 the one who did not speak English indicated that the upper control arm is not long enough.
Shop # 5 or 6 mentioned moving the holes in the lower control arms. At the time I did not understand what he was talking about. Tech #8 the one who did not speak English indicated that the upper control arm is not long enough.
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