Our current system for lithium

[booster]

I am still looking at potential from scratch simple systems, but haven't compared that will what we have currently which was mostly just upgrade of our existing 440ah AGM setup. Since I did the change to lithium our shore charger from the AGM system died this year and no direct replacement with same capability for charging flexibility and voltage sensing at the batteries.

I did a quick sketch of it for my files today as the inverter/charger change was done in hurry up mode last summer to be ready for a trip but not documented. It was mostly redoing the inv mounting, moving the shunt and eliminating excess uneeded cabling and wiring to clean it up. The bed frame did have to come out to modify also for clearance for the new inv/chg.

The components are all items that would also work for AGM, but are flexible enough for lithium also.

The standalone alternator is a 250amp DC Power Engineering unit without internal regulator

The alternator is a Wakespeed set at 13.8v and 120 amps (shunt controlled amps through Wakespeed)

The battery monitor for the system is a Victron with Bluetooth with internal contacts turning the Wakespeed off and on based on SOC and shuts of alternator charging at 80%. There is a bypass to charge out of range if we want to that bypasses the Victron contacts.

The solar is from years ago, Blue Sky, MPPT, shunt controlled, 3 stage charging set 13.4v abs, 13.1 float, 13.0 rebulk. It is only turned on once we get to 50% SOC while camping and it cycles along in the midrange of SOC usually gaining a bit in good sun and losing in weak sun.

Shore charge is a Samlex 3000/130 inverter/charger and is used only at home while in storage using charging to 80% by voltage and hold time and then rebuling at 13.1v, repeat. It only charges once or twice per winter.

Batteries are SOK with Bluetooth 3X206 amp hours for 618ah at 12v

We never plug in unless we need AC and always stay in the 35-80% SOC.

The coach power comes right off the batteries and through the OEM battery relay.

 

[phantomjock]

booster -

Forgive my ignorance, or boat-background for asking a few questions. You say:

The coach power comes right off the batteries and through the OEM battery relay.

I assume the translation as; Coach = House (bank) and Vehicle (?) = Starting.

So, I understand that means; all vehicle loads; starting, all accessories, radio, and lights when underway are supplied by the "House Batteries"? If I got that right, then you have no separate starting battery, or the need for a B2B. [Perhaps I'm just confused - the previous thread Possible very flexible, accurate, and less expensive lithium system did mentioned a B2B

...The first layout...

https://www.classbforum.com/attachments/litium-system-2-jpg.1948920/

Perhaps it is just missing in this diagram?

When underway, are you seeing an electrical load underway of 30-70 amps - just for the vehicle? That would be a big portion of the 120 you mentioned from the Wakespeed. Plus the compressor refrigerator will require some service too.

If there is no B2b and no starting battery, I assume you keep a capacitive jump start on board - or other means of warning in place to preclude dead-to-start? I guess you'd "jump" at the OEM battery relay?

Is the manual disconnect on the 3/0 from the battery bank to the Wakespeed Alternator for "anti-theft" or disconnect for storage?

When recharging on the road from 35-80 percent SOC, I guess you complete that in about 4-6 hours? NOTE: I didn't factor in the solar, so some help there I guess.

Thanks in advance.

Cheers - Jim

 

[booster]

It says OEM (that would be Roadtrek) 12 battery RELAY that is controlled by the switch on the control panel.

None of the GM wiring or starting battery are shown because this system is a separate standalone second alternator setup like many/most of the systems are now for large systems. No mixing of power from chassis alternator or starting battery and the coach stuff at all.

With no connection there are no running loads from the engine or chassis and the coach side.

No B to B needed or wanted for this system as the Wakespeed regulator takes care of all that and is also totally settable. Since the Wakespeed is controlling amperage at 120 amps, and shunt measuring that 120 amps at the batteries, any and all coach loads like the frig, fans, crock pot, device charging aren't seen and the Wakespeed turns itself up to maintain the 120 to the batteries. Very nice way to do things. IMO. The solar doesn't even muck it up if it is charging the batteries at the same time because the Wakespeed turns itself down to maintain only the 120 amps to the batteries. B to B chargers are necessary on a single alternator system but not necessary for a standalone setup with a remote alternator as long as the regulator can limit current to prevent overloading the alternator.

The disconnect between the batteries and engine compartment junction strip and fuse and second alternator is because you need to disconnect the huge bank from the engine bay if you are working on anything there as it will stay hot with hundreds of amps available. Not safe.

We are only charging 45% of capacity or just under 250ah for our bank. We are in midrange so no real amount of tapering. Max time if we are on the highway and at full output of 120 amps it would take a touch over 2 hours. I have the Wakespeed turn down the output at idle and low speeds to allow cooler running and more available power available to accelerate. Our batteries will never see more than 120 amps of charging because the solar only does about 15 amps and the shore charger is set on 50 amps, even with both on the Wakespeed would just make up the extra to get to 120 amps is all were running together which never would happen anyway.

I don't carry a jump start box, but I have a short homemade jumper cable to tie the starting battery to junction strip on the firewall if we need to reactivate the batteries.

 

[phantomjock]

booster -

Thank you. Much clarification in your word picture that was not obvious in the diagram.

I now better understand how you have this setup. No B2B, but the added complexity of installing a second alternator, mounting, belts, etc., and its controller as you have. All choices - All compromises. I get it. That was not my path, but then again, you did yours 15-18 years ago, as I recall. B2B chargers have only recently become available/affordable and a useful option along with LiFePO batteries.

As this system (and a second alternator) performs the household chores while the vehicle is powered by the OEM alternator:

Since the Wakespeed is controlling amperage at 120 amps, and shunt measuring that 120 amps at the batteries, any and all coach loads like the frig, fans, crock pot, device charging aren't seen and the Wakespeed turns itself up to maintain the 120 to the batteries. Very nice way to do things. IMO.

A B2B would so the same, but you had equipment on hand to use. This adds a nice touch:

...have the Wakespeed turn down the output at idle and low speeds to allow cooler running and more available power available to accelerate.

Having built and worked with 1200+Ah systems, I also "get" the need to disconnect, but the added complexity (cost of a 300A switch) looks like it could be avoided by pulling a fuse. Still a nice touch.

Lots of good information. A complete picture/image would be helpful to readers looking to upgrade/convert their Class B to LiFePO4.

Cheers - Jim

 

[booster]

I think I would say that a B to B "could" do what the wakespeed does, but none are currently made to do some of those things as far as I know. Also using the remote regulator saves the 10-20% loss in a B to B. The Wakespeed also takes much less space and small wiring instead of cables. Ours sits under the passenger seat.

B to B chargers don't use a shunt to measure the actual current to the batteries so any coach loads will reduce the charge amps and inputs like solar increase the charge rate. Not major for a large system but can make a difference in smaller systems with lower charge rates or when the B to B also is looking at amps to determine when to quit charging. A radical example would those users in super hot climates that run the coach AC unit while driving to get more cooling. If you had a B to B at 120 amps and the AC came on you would lose nearly all the charging to the AC, where the Wakespeed will just turn itself up to maintain the charging. B to B chargers are getting better, with some now being fully settable for stage voltages and even using full shutoff charging when batteries are full, but they are kind of rare still (Renogy does have one now to get higher output at 100 amps it is quite large). None do SOC termination that I know off except Victron with centrally controlled, shunt based, system.

Especially with us charging to midrange we need to amps and volts at the battery to be accurate if we are using that to terminate charging, which we did early on with the Wakespeed and it would do that automatically to settings. It can also do it by SOC, which is what we now do through the Victron monitor, but the Wakespeed doesn't have a Bluetooth connection so to do a calibration you have to remove the cover and plug in a cable to set current SOC. A new competitor, Zeus, is claimed to have addressed this by adding Bluetooth to their version. I think some B to B chargers now turn themselves down with an alternator temp sensor, but not certain on that. Most remote regulators like Wakespeed and Balmar do drop the output is the alternator gets to hot.

Benefits of a single alternator are real but not quite as flexible in some ways for control or full shutoff to the coach unless you add it yourself as many do. A big plus is having two alternators lets you have the ability to just drop a parts store replacement in on the road if the original vehicle one fails, but you do need to make sure you have a spare belt as both ways load the belt more.

 

[phantomjock]

booster -

All good information.
As you have time; part numbers and complete diagrams would be a helpful addition to the thread.

Cheers - Jim

I'll add; I do carry an extra belt and a bar to release the tension. It is a lot easier maintenance effort, as I've eliminated the factory engine driven fan.

 

[booster]

Batteries are SOK SK12V206PH | Marine Grade 12V in plastic case which is better for the Bluetooth compared to the steel case. No heaters wanted

Alternator is an XP250 for DC power engineering and it comes with a regulator so you modify it for remote.
No longer available so would get XP280 without regulator and modified for remote from Nations Alternator

Nations also has an alternator mounting kit which can be bought with an alternator of your choice and remote regulator of your choice

Regulator is a Wakespeed WS500 and is now part of Battleborn (Dragonfly). Available multiple places

Solar is a Blue Sky SB2512-HV MPPT plus a Blue Sky IPM Pro-s IPN remote with shunt (or share shunt with Victron monitor)

Shore charge is a Samlex EVO3012 inverter at 3000w inverter with 130 amp charger with internal automatic transfer switch and automatic neutral/ground bonding and comes with a nice remote panel for monitoring and programming. No Bluetooth.

Victron monitor is Victron BMV 712 Smart with Bluetooth and shunt

I am using an expensive remote switching Blue Sea disconnect at the engine charging only because I had it here and wired in manual only. The other is a Blue Sea manual disconnect with two positions that is not necessary. Just using two Blue Sea 6004 manual disconnects would be lots less money and do the same thing.

Fuse holders are MRBF Terminal Fuse Block and fuses available lots of places and mount on device connection posts.

Disclaimer is that some of the parts are hold over from past systems so some better options might be available especially for the solar as ours can't be wired for 36v of panels to get series and lower current. Also remember that these items allow us to charge in the midrange accurately with little input from us. If you are going to charge to 14.4v on every charge cycle to get balancing and more choices in chargers a lot of the parts can be more basic and less expensive.

What more detail do you need for the system aside from a formal drawing which I normally don't bother with? All the engine and chassis are stock and coach items are unrelated to the charging system.

 

[phantomjock]

booster -

Nice cataloging of the specific parts. They will fit nicely in my files. Thank you. They must have been close at hand. You must be organized!

Personally, I don't require a drawing, as you answered the questions that I had from the initial description. I was just thinking of other forum members and the new members might find such details useful. I am just recalling Goldfein's personal motto of, 'Make it Better," and thinking of this forum.

Also, an engineer's drawing adds some (perhaps immeasurable) value to the next owner. The "RT" manuals are wanting in many respects. Documentation is often last in the logistics stream - as I'm sure you have experienced.

Cheers - Jim
Out.

 

[booster]

Actually, I pretty much knew exactly what was in place and just had to confirm the exact part numbers with a quick lookup. When I do stuff like this I am an obsessive reader of specs, sources, reviews, other applications, etc so over exposed. The Samsung inverter charger and remote each have manuals that are 120 pages so 240 pages of reading, sorting out what is relevant, and then searching them for a way to do the little things that make it work well with out system. By the time I get to the install, I have a sketch and the different manuals and have at it and handle the unknowns as they come up. I do use the manuals religiously for the wiring so I get the right wires to the right places. Best advice I ever got was from an old timer (when I was young and green) self taught mechanical engineer/facility engineer/machinery maintenance guy. "if you don't know how and why it works, you will not be able to fix it when it doesn't work".

All the lithium stuff is still evolving so we don't have any idea where it will land for best practices. A logical for us best guess is what is done now for all of us. I still think lithium will be pushed aside long before we know a lot about it as the various replacements appear to moving along towards implementation success, but not there yet.

 

[Winston-ClassB]

Booster, do you have a separate shunt on your solar/controller? Seems that the principle of MPPT controllers is to let them automatically 'adjust' to provide the maximium power output. Wondering under what circumstances you would want to limit your solar output?

Also a little confused about your Wakefield regulator . . . are you using a separate shunt or does the Wakefield double-up and use the Victron shunt? I like the idea of using a shunt where you can regulate based on current. Our DIY 2nd alternator regulator is a simple voltage regulator which - - as you can imagine - - results in some odd charging profiles at times. May have to look into the Wakefield.

Phantomjock, we have a 'stand-alone' system like Booster's in which there is no connection between the van's OEM electrical system (battery, alternator etc) and our added lithium system that includes a Nation's 2nd alternator, shore charger and a comparatively large (930 watt) solar array. The principal advantage of a 2nd alternator is its ability to provide very high recharging current rates . . . 150 - 200 amperes and more. Even if a B-to-B charger could be built to accommodate these currents, standard OEM alternators, even the high current models, would not likely be able to supply the required additional load.

And a 2nd alternator has the additional advantage of obsoleting a stand-by generator. Unlike Booster who has throttled back his 2nd alternator during idle conditions, our system can output over 100 amperes DC at idle (yes we do monitor temperature which limits the 2nd alternator output current and duration while 'standing still') . . . this, in combination with our 3KW sine wave invertor, allows us to run our high current 120VAC appliances (e.g. 2 burner induction cooktop) without further discharging our lithium pack.

 

[otr]

You might try the Roadtrek Zion & Simplicity Owners Group on FB. there is a great deal of discussion about this as many of those vans have a UHG under hood generator, aka a second alternator, and many have upgraded from a single AGM system to larger LIPO and hybrid AGM + LIPO systems. Log into Facebook

 

[booster]

Hi Winston good to hear from you.

We have we use shunt based amperage control charging since the AGM system went in a decade ago as it works so very well with AGM to be able to get the full without overcharging by stopping at, for our Lifelines, 2a at absorption voltage for a 440ah bank. We have continued to use the amp control with the Wakespeed regulator but only for the features related to charge current limiting and reductions at low rpm and idle or from the alternator temp. The amps are controlled from the shunt at the batteries so isn't influenced by loads and such. For the engine charging we control the Wakespeed by SOC with a Victron 612 battery monitor that is also shunt controlled for accuracy. Since the Wakespeed is controlling the alternator via the field current it can put out as much as the alternator can generate under any circumstances or anything under it by setting the max amps output from wanted at the shunt/batteries. What you do watch out for is that with 120 amps to the batteries the control point and loads not affecting that is that is you had the AC on inverter while driving like some in hot climates do, you could pull excess amps and overheat the alternator if the batteries were accepting much. The solution is to set the same setting we use to limit field current at idle at the upper rmps also. Because it is a field % it is not as accurate for amps, but it works well for heat in the alternator as you set it for the max you want to use as long as it is within the limits before it gets hot. I dont' care for cycling on the the high temp trigger and never tested it to how much and how fast it turns it down.

The solar controller shunt controlled, but only because it is leftover from the AGM system where it was needed for absorption end. It is such a low amount at 300 watts of panel that I can just turn it on when we get to about 50% SOC on the monitor and let it run based on voltage set at 13.4v to make it nearly impossible to overcharge if I forget to shut it off when we get near full (which has never happened or even been close to yet). It actually never really even gets to 13.4v in use, and commonly is just bouncing around 13.2v or so. In good sun it will keep up with what we use, it bad sun we lose some but generally it would rare to have engine charge very often or at all on a trip.

The shore charger is rarely used on the road and it is voltage/time controlled to shut off at 13.8v after a very short hold time of a couple of minutes. That is the calibration point for the Victron monitor which I set to 80% SOC at that point. Not perfect, but at midrange not an issue for me. In storage it shuts of and montors and rebulks at 13.1v IIRC what I set. It might rebulk once a winter if I use some extra power like lights a long time.

All the shunt based devices are controlled by one shunt so that makes it really simple. I have checked the accuracy as well as I can and stacking didn't show up as an issue of consequence and it appears to be pretty commonly done. Ours is the Victron shunt because it has the control board on it for the monitor, but you can also connect individual devices directly to sensing connections.

IMO, with a standalone system you need to control the amperage out or you can break things pretty easily. B to B chargers work, but are large and consume quite a bit power. They also require the large cables to them but don't usually need really big because of low amp ratings. Sterling does have a 120 amp here and a 180 amp in Europe, though. The Wakespeed has all relatively small wiring with the input 12v and field output are the largest draw and well under 10 amps.

Running a voltage regulator to control the alternator will certainly give some really odd profiles, I know it well from my testing. Since the Wakespeed caps voltage and amps, you can at least be accurate when at speed and nearing end of charge. The rest of the time it is just trying to get to 120 amps by varying the field current and while that sounds pretty nice, it can give you a problem at idle because it is still trying to get to 120 amps so goes to full field current. Full field current can overheat the alternator quite quickly at idle speeds in our Chevy. With our turndown we get in the 40-50 amp range at idle and it can do that all day and keep the alternator cool. We have never had the regulator turn the atlernator down based on temp to this point so working for us well. The turndown point is also settable in the Wakespeed and ours is at IIRC 220*F.

If you are considering trying a remote regulator like the Wakespeed, which has some worts to work around, you might want to check out the new kid on the block named Zeus. The came out right after I got the Wakespeed running nice so too late for me. Their claim is that can all and more than the Wakespeed, including Bluetooth, and have gotten rid of all of the worts and problems of the Wakespeed. Their tech information was pretty sparse when I looked at them last (1+ year ago) so couldn't really evaluate much. They are tight with details if you haven't bought on yet, at least they were when I called them back then.

 

[Winston-ClassB]

Thanks for the heads-up on the Zeus. Right now, we're sticking with our quirky DIY, but considering some changes this winter as we think we might change-out our lithiums.