Roadtrek P190 Cabinets Sagging

[Jon in AZ]

I had noticed some time ago that the door on the cabinet next to the microwave doesn’t latch and appears misaligned. During our recent trip I discovered that both galley cabinets- microwave and the one next to it- appear to be pulling out of the ceiling and separating. If I push up against the bottom of the cabinets there is a quarter to half an inch of play, and the pieces seem to come together.

Here’s the affected cabinetry with the area of concern circled.


In this photo you can see the misalignment of the cabinet door.


Close-up showing separation and gap between top of cabinet and headliner.


The only visible attachment screw is toward the front end of the storage cabinet, and it is solid.


I’m thinking there must be at least one more inside the microwave enclosure. I think I need to pull the microwave, but I can’t see how it is attached. There is a piece of stainless steel under the cabinets. If I remove that, will I find screws holding the microwave?

Any suggestions or personal experience? I’d also appreciate some general information about how the cabinets are attached to the fiberglass roof. What am I dealing with behind the headliner? Are there wood strips embedded in the fiberglass?

 

[dicktill]

Hi Jon,

Ah, Roadtrek quality and "The Butcher of Kitchener" strike again. : (

The cabinets are not supported/attached to the ceiling in any way. Most of the support is provided by the galley "box" itself which is screwed to the floor. The galley is also attached to the adjacent closet/cabinet. The overhead galley cabinet is fastened to what was originally the box beam (I call it the bolster) at the juncture of the side wall and original roof behind the microwave. The adjacent closet/cabinet also has a bracket to that bolster. IIRC, that is all there is.

Thanks to Booster for this tidbit: There are two boards under the microwave. It is fastened to the upper one of those (but the fasteners are inaccessible), and the board in turn is fastened to the piece of solid wood trim just below the microwave. To pull the microwave you have to remove 2 screws underneath that fasten the two boards together, and then pull/jiggle the microwave, the board, and the trim piece out. Mine was/is quite "sticky".

On my way out the door, but if this doesn't help enough, I might be able to find (or create) some photos later.

What year is yours?

Good luck, Dick

 

[Jon in AZ]

It’s a 2014. Thanks for the tip about the microwave.

“Butcher of Kitchener”... hadn’t heard that before. I never had any illusions about build quality, since it was originally purchased by my mother, and I helped her fix a number of build quality issues when she made her first trip to visit us in Arizona. I winced at the thick, heavy, particle board cabinet cases, from which several screws had already pulled out in a shower of wood dust.

So now I’m thinking in terms of some kind of reinforcement under the front edge of the upper cabinets that spans the whole galley. Any ideas regarding what material to use for strength and a neat appearance? With the microwave out, I’ll also look for ways to tie the two cabinets together more securely.

 

[dicktill]

It’s a 2014. Thanks for the tip about the microwave.

“Butcher of Kitchener”... hadn’t heard that before. I never had any illusions about build quality, since it was originally purchased by my mother, and I helped her fix a number of build quality issues when she made her first trip to visit us in Arizona. I winced at the thick, heavy, particle board cabinet cases, from which several screws had already pulled out in a shower of wood dust.

So now I’m thinking in terms of some kind of reinforcement under the front edge of the upper cabinets that spans the whole galley. Any ideas regarding what material to use for strength and a neat appearance? With the microwave out, I’ll also look for ways to tie the two cabinets together more securely.

Thanks for your PM.

Ours is a 2010, and I don't think there is any particle board, but rather plywood. Perhaps they changed, and that might be the root of your problem. However, some of the joints are screws into the plywood edges, so not very secure (although some are also in routed grooves: "dado's"). There are better fasteners (then the sheet metal type screws used on ours) out there that are made for particle board and such; they have much steeper/coarser threads: https://woodworkingtoolkit.com/best-screws-particle-boards-mdf/.

Again from Booster (what would we do without him?) that I forgot: the microwave cabinet is also screwed to the cabinet behind it. That cabinet sits on and is screwed to the bolster.

 

[booster]

Dick has had a whole lot more of the parts of his Roadtrek apart than most anyone, I think, so he is the best source for fastener locations and such, both missing and present, and put in, not put in, or stripped by the "butcher".



The "particle board" thing is a pretty common misconception, I think, as the pylwood used is super lightweight stuff in which the cores are made of something like balsa wood. The screwholding ability is horrible and when they pull out or strip you do get particle board looking stuff. Even when you bolt through, the stuff compresses.



Screw selection can help as Dick said, and also putting adhesive on the screws when you put them in can be a benefit, but bolting through and using T nuts is way better if possible.

 

[dicktill]

I had noticed some time ago that the door on the cabinet next to the microwave doesn’t latch and appears misaligned. During our recent trip I discovered that both galley cabinets- microwave and the one next to it- appear to be pulling out of the ceiling and separating. If I push up against the bottom of the cabinets there is a quarter to half an inch of play, and the pieces seem to come together.

Here’s the affected cabinetry with the area of concern circled.
View attachment 8214

In this photo you can see the misalignment of the cabinet door.
View attachment 8215

Close-up showing separation and gap between top of cabinet and headliner.
View attachment 8216

The only visible attachment screw is toward the front end of the storage cabinet, and it is solid.
View attachment 8217

I’m thinking there must be at least one more inside the microwave enclosure. I think I need to pull the microwave, but I can’t see how it is attached. There is a piece of stainless steel under the cabinets. If I remove that, will I find screws holding the microwave?

Any suggestions or personal experience? I’d also appreciate some general information about how the cabinets are attached to the fiberglass roof. What am I dealing with behind the headliner? Are there wood strips embedded in the fiberglass?

Oops, in looking at my galley cabinets to see where you could add some support, and then looking back at your photos, I see some major differences, so now all my earlier comments are in question. : ( It looks like you only have the microwave and then one cabinet in front of it. Ours is like that, but we also have a long, low cabinet over both of those, so I think your microwave is mounted higher than ours, and it may or may not be mounted the same (poor) way as ours. And because you don't have the extra cabinet up above, I have no good explanation of the screw your red arrow is pointing to. We have a bunch of these in the cabinet "ceiling", but they tie that cabinet to the extra cabinet above.

In answer to your question "Are there wood strips embedded in the fiberglass?", the answer is yes, and I have previously posted some photos of them in another thread (I'll have to see where, or repost them here), BUT they may have modified those locations between 2010 & 2014. So perhaps that screw you pointed out does indeed attach to the ceiling/roof.

We also don't have a piece of stainless under the microwave, only a stainless backsplash, a formed stainless cover around the bolster, and a piece of stainless under the cabinet (which is over the stove). Could you provide some more photos?

 

[booster]

I didn't see the missing top cabinet, either. They much have done that to get rid of the microwave head bonker we have, which sits way low. Tough to brush teeth with it there. I wonder when they changed that?

 

[Jon in AZ]

Yes, just the two cabinets over the galley, tight against the ceiling. I’ll take a picture of the underside when I have a chance. There are two screw heads under the microwave but toward the front, not into the microwave itself. If they’re still using the same mounting technique (which makes sense), they would be holding the board holding the microwave. I’ll be pretty busy from tomorrow,, but I’ll at least try those two screws and see if they release the microwave as described. I’m really curious if there are any more screws into the ceiling.

I can’t imagine the cabinets hanging any lower than they are. Head bonker, indeed! Not to worry, though. Mine has plenty of other head bonkers, and I’ve found them all...

Good to know about the case material. At least it’s not so heavy, though it’s space-robbing, and there are better ways to build cabinets in a rolling earthquake zone.

Thanks for the help, all! This forum is a great place.

 

[Jon in AZ]

Update

Finally found time to take another look at the cabinets. Squeaks and rattles from that part of the camper motivated me to get started.

I undid the two screws under the microwave and it slid right out, along with a strip of wood attached to the microwave and a trim piece. Easy-peasy. Thanks to booster and dicktill for explaining how it's mounted!



As described, there is no ceiling attachment anywhere in the microwave cabinet. I think that is the heart of the problem. The cabinet case material is thin enough to flex when you're going down the road, and the microwave is heavy.



I am going to screw and glue the top right corner of the microwave cabinet. The upper left corner already has a screw, and I'll pull it and add some glue. That side doesn't seem to be pulling loose. I'll see how that does first, and then decide if additional reinforcement is needed.

I may not reinstall the microwave. We mostly dry camp without AC power or generator and don't really need it. Without a ceiling attachment, I don't think the cabinet is strong enough to carry the weight. One or two additional tabbing mounts in the fiberglass ceiling would have prevented all this. Thinking about putting a stretchy net across the cabinet and using it for open storage of lightweight items like paper goods. I will have to neatly close in the back, which is currently open to the fiberglass roof (you can see a wire running at the back in the photo). I think I can see an easy and non-invasive way to do that.

I’ll hang onto the microwave, and all the changes will be easily reversible if I later change my mind or sell the camper.

Thoughts?

 

[peterarnold]

Setting a cabin in the RV is not an easy task, You can check some of the guides about woodworking techniques on this website https://woodhutt.com/best-wood-router/

 

[mkguitar]

Hey Peter,


Welcome to the forums.




Living in AZ my cabinetry ( maple, pleasure way) was shrunk up & squeaky when I bought it 8 years used.



1/8 to 1/4 turn on every of the thousand Robertson head screws solved that.


CDN code uses Robertson head screws for cabinetry and electrical.
I've seen "square drive" screwdrivers at home depot, but they don;t work as well as my Dad's old Robertson set, R1, R2 sizes are common in my RV


Mike

 

[peterarnold]

Thanks MkGuiatr, My pleasure to join this awesome forum where I can learn something great. So far, I have been learned so many things from your forum. Actually I am a cabinet maker and I want to share my knowledge with you as well. If you have spare time and don't mind then Best Router Table is one of my efforts.

 

[Jon in AZ]

I see I never updated this thread. I cut a brace and propped the cabinets tight against the ceiling. I added two barbed screws into the corner that was pulling apart. Couldn't find any other place to add screws, and the rest I could find were tight.

When I removed the brace it still sagged, but not as bad as before. I put two curtain tension rods between the counter and the upper cabinets, easily removed to use the galley. For now the microwave is still out. The cabinet door in front of the microwave was still a little cockeyed, so I remounted the hardware so it would latch.

Not quite fully satisfying, but it'll do. A number of creaks and squeaks went away, so that much was a success.

 

[peterarnold]

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[GeorgeRad]

I attached my O/H cabinets directly to the roof ribs using 5/16-18 rivnuts. Would it be possible to use ribs in your case?

 

[Jon in AZ]

I attached my O/H cabinets directly to the roof ribs using 5/16-18 rivnuts. Would it be possible to use ribs in your case?

The raised roof is molded fiberglass on the Chevies. IMO they should have glassed in some tabs to provide attachment points for the upper cabinets. But I have neither the skills nor the inclination to dismantle the cabinets and headliner to do that.

 

[GeorgeRad]

Good point, my Bigfoot fiberglass camper and the trailer had all cabinet mounting brackets glassed in.

 

[RickT190]

i have the same problem

 

[Jon in AZ]

i have the same problem

I’ve seen it on a couple of units for sale, too, worse than mine and in the exact same place. I think it’s worth attempting some reinforcement, or it will get worse.

If you figure out something better, hope you’ll post your solution.

 

[MarthaA]

Same sagging cabinets in a 2017 RoadTrek 190P

Hello, We have a 2017 RoadTrek 190P – a Chevy van – with the same sagging cabinets discussed here. Pictures posted by Jon in AZ are pretty much like my cabinets.
* One difference in our case is the space above our microwave. See the picture I hope to post here. There is a black rubber filler or washer or whatever it's called which makes me concerned the microwave is actually attached to the wood above it. How would I get to that if there is a screw involved?
* Looking at the other spaces and screws, there are 2 screws below the microwave which I should be able to unscrew and then pull the microwave and the board it is sitting on. Sounds so simple. Except that washer in the space above. Has anyone seen this?

My goal for this project: to have the least stressful trip possible (set for July or more likely August) with the least amount of (preferably no) damage to our RoadTrek. I realize "least" is a relative term.

What if we left things as they are and went off on our travels? Could it get worse? What would that look like? I do see our RoadTrek as an investment and want to take good care of it as best we can.

The other option I see is to take the microwave out, at least temporarily. Is there any reason to think that once taken out we or someone else would have a hard time put it back in?

I don’t see how I could get it fixed up better before our trip. We just don’t have the time or ‘expertise’ to do it – at least quickly. And there’s not enough time to get someone else to work on it. I say that after reading this thread about what to do. I am wondering if anyone has updates to the problem!

Taking the microwave out for the trip is very controversial. We use it a lot and cook great meals that would not happen (as easily?) without the microwave.