Roadtreking Winter Freezeout Adventure

[Davydd]

There are a few ARV owners on the Roadtreking:The Group Facebook site. I'm not one of them. Actually it is not a bad site following Mike Wendland's stated purpose. With over 6,000 members there is a tremendous amount of Class B travelog and RV ideas information. I don't get to it all that much but since it is public it is readable. I have been searching that site with the search word "Tahquamenon" just to see who the people are interested in going and what they say. A lot of people don't know how to spell Tahquamenon.

I don't intend to extoll the superiority of ARV at the Freezeout. I am sure Mike Wendland knows all about them. I think he has met Mike Neundorfer.

 

[gregmchugh]

Not likely he would post this these days but he did do a story on Advanced RV back in the early days of Roadtreking before he became more closely tied to Roadtrek...

Looks like the associated video is not there anymore...

Inside Advanced RV's new Ocean One Type B MotorhomeRoadtreking : The RV Lifestyle Blog

Here is the video...

https://vimeo.com/57497009

 

[Davydd]

I almost forgot about that video. I think that was their first conversion back in 2012. A lot of things are similar and there have been quite a few advances since. The lithium ion batteries at that time were the drop in Smart Battery. They installed up to four of them for 400ah. That also may have been the only B they built with an Onan generator. They almost immediately went to the dual alternator.

Mike N drove that ARV to that Tampa show and I don't think they have gone to any other shows since as exhibitors. He stated a goal of 50 per year and he reiterated that last May at Advanced Fest. That would roughly be four per month. Right now there are about at least two lucky customers per month by my guestimates. They have been very selective about who they employ but they have been growing to meet that goal.

 

[Davydd]

The second annual Freezeout came and went last weekend. There were about 31 RVs I believe including one 5th wheeler, one truck camper, three Advanced RVs and the remainder Roadtreks. Mike Wendland posted a wrap up pictorial on his website.

PHOTOS FROM THE TAHQUAMENON FALLS WINTER CAMPOUT

I've posted some photos on my Facebook Wall.

We spent one night at a Walmart in Ironwood, MI on our way up to the UP and two nights at the campout. We drove 540 miles straight home since the last 300 or so were 4 lane highway. Temperatures were in the 20s so was quite mild, IMO. Roads were good. A couple of nights we only got snow dustings of less than an inch. There was almost 2 feet of snow on the ground. The DNR had the registered campsites and roads to them plowed.

We all were pretty much on our own during the day except for a DNR guided snowshoe hike. Friday and Saturday night dinners were at a restaurant in Paradise and at the Tahquamenon Falls Brewpub & Grill.

We will plan on doing this again next year if a third annual is held.

 

[Davydd]

The annual Winter Freezeout came and went last week. This was our fourth of six. I missed two because I was in Willoughby, OH at Advanced RV to get our current van and two years ago we opted for Australia.

It was cold as usual and there was the guaranteed snow. Over 30 people came. Wendland now has a Class C Leisure Travel so the rally may change. There was a 5th wheeler, two Cs and a mini-van. Many Roadtrek holdovers. There were Winnebago's and Airstreams. We were not the only ARV there. We met fellow ARVers Kent and Judy that came all the way up from Kansas City, MO.

In all honesty, when you have full electric shore power, winter camping is a cinch. Pink anti-freeze takes care of the minimal use of the toilet mostly for night time number 1. The vault toilets were open. Prepared food potlucks and two restaurant dinner gatherings took care of minimal van cooking over 4 nights.

This is Mike Wendland's video of the event which captures the flavor.

 

[Arlo-ClassB]

So Alvar was winterized for this event. At what minimum expected temperature do you winterize Alvar? You’ve mentioned previously that the Alvar-generation plumbing had no issues with temperatures well below freezing, so just curious what triggers the decision to winterize.

Also, did the other ARV have the current-generation indoor plumbing, and was their van winterized too?

At ARV Fest 2019 I asked about the lower limit of the current indoor plumbing, but they don’t really know. Mike N. jokes that they can’t find anyone with a huge freezer that is willing to let them use it for testing.

 

[Davydd]

So Alvar was winterized for this event. At what minimum expected temperature do you winterize Alvar? You’ve mentioned previously that the Alvar-generation plumbing had no issues with temperatures well below freezing, so just curious what triggers the decision to winterize.

Also, did the other ARV have the current-generation indoor plumbing, and was their van winterized too?

At ARV Fest 2019 I asked about the lower limit of the current indoor plumbing, but they don’t really know. Mike N. jokes that they can’t find anyone with a huge freezer that is willing to let them use it for testing.

I've camped down to -15 deg. F. with water in the tank and I've stated many times before the first week I had the van the temperature never went above freezing and I boondocked with water until I got to Arizona. I never winterize since I store in a heated garage now in Minnesota over the winter. When on the road the heating takes care of the fresh water with waste glycol heat and the water lines are such that I've never had a freezeup. I don't worry too much. Since I bought my van ARV has ensured water lines are put more inside now and probably have taken other measures. I could have opted for heating pads on the black and grey tanks but have never felt a need with how much I use them and a little bit of anti-freeze. Emptying the tanks is the problem since most dump stations are closed in the north and that's why we use them as little as possible. We average 12 days between dumps and this was a 4 day event and I will take 3 days to get to South Padre Island, Texas next week. I started out with fresh water about 31% full and got down to 25% as I used water sparingly like brushing my teeth and washing my hands. I went through less than 2 gallons of pink anti-freeze for flushing and chasing water use in the sink drains. We carried gallon jugs for drinking and coffee water.

The lithium batteries never go below 41 deg. F.

ARV knows. They don't know the the low limits but they have had feedback from me and other customers for the practical limits of what a person cares to endure. As I stated, with shore power any RV can endure. There were Class Bs (mostly Roadtreks) back to the 1990s at the Winter Freezeout.

What Triggers the decision to winterize? If you store outside especially if not plugged into shore power. Though I didn't winterize the first two winters when stored outside because I had shore power. As a practical measure we dump our tanks when putting it in storage or for that matter between trips. We left water in the tank for the anticipated Winter Freezeout and going south.

 

[Arlo-ClassB]

So your use of antifreeze is due to concern that the grey and black tanks might freeze? I misinterpreted your reference to using antifreeze in your post - thought you had decided to winterize and wondered why. Safe travels.

 

[Davydd]

So your use of antifreeze is due to concern that the grey and black tanks might freeze? I misinterpreted your reference to using antifreeze in your post - thought you had decided to winterize and wondered why. Safe travels.

I use anti-freeze in the black and grey tank probably from habit, conventional wisdom, and to keep my wife happy I’m doing something. If you don’t fill those tanks, freezing isn’t hurting them and as I said you probably can’t dump them until you can get to an open dump station in warmer weather.

 

[booster]

As davydd, most tanks won't get hurt if they have some liquid freeze in them, but if you have a macerator it is very vulnerable to freeze damage and most have as pure antifreeze in it as possible if you are below freezing for long.

 

[Davydd]

If you empty your tanks, close the valve and run your macerater a few seconds to expel any remaining liquid and then subsequently don’t dump until as I said you get to warmer weather I think you would be all right. Maybe anti-freeze is suspender insurance just in case. Anti-freeze is cheap insurance.

 

[booster]

If you empty your tanks, close the valve and run your macerater a few seconds to expel any remaining liquid and then subsequently don’t dump until as I said you get to warmer weather I think you would be all right. Maybe anti-freeze is suspender insurance just in case. Anti-freeze is cheap insurance.

A lot of it has to do with the macerator position and the exit plumbing angles, etc to how much water will be left in the pump. They don't use an exit check valve so once it starts to pump some air, the water loses it's "push" and can run back down the plumbing. On a right side up macerator, the water/stuff enters the pump low and leave high, so anything that doesn't get out can get trapped in the pump chamber and pipe into it.

 

[Boxster1971]

I've camped down to -15 deg. F. with water in the tank and I've stated many times before the first week I had the van the temperature never went above freezing and I boondocked with water until I got to Arizona. . .

. . . When on the road the heating takes care of the fresh water with waste glycol heat and the water lines are such that I've never had a freezeup. I don't worry too much. . .

David - does the glycol heating loop get heat from the engine when driving? I’m hoping that was how ARV builds their system.

 

[Davydd]

David - does the glycol heating loop get heat from the engine when driving? I’m hoping that was how ARV builds their system.

No. The glycol is a separate loop for the diesel-fired Espar furnace underneath the floor about where the driver's seat is. There is a Comfort Hot fillable reservoir where a under hood battery could go. That reservoir has a heating element built in and you could use it when you are plugged into shore power. The 1,500 watt element probably would use up your batteries otherwise. It works fairly well but it takes time to get up to heating all the glycol in the loop to be effective -- about 2-3 hours. I suppose you could preheat with the diesel-fired Espar. It kept the van at 65 deg. when it was about 10 degrees overnight. It was so effective, though plugged into shore power we did not utilize an electric ceramic heater much other than to blow air into the cab area when we were seated up there in turned around seats. As I mentioned, when it's that cold outside you can find few camping opportunities with shore power. This was one of the few times I got to try it.

Diesel-fired I think uses about 1/4 cup of diesel per hour. Don't quote me on that but it seems negligible. We used that on the way up in a Walmart parking lot.

 

[Boxster1971]

No. The glycol is a separate loop for the diesel-fired Espar furnace underneath the floor about where the driver's seat is. . .

. . . Diesel-fired I think uses about 1/4 cup of diesel per hour. Don't quote me on that but it seems negligible.

Do you then run the Espar while driving to keep the glycol loop warm?

 

[Davydd]

Do you then run the Espar while driving to keep the glycol loop warm?

No. Haven't needed to and I think I have encountered many cold weather situations than most anyone cares to encounter. It's possible to run the Espar while driving but why? The cab area is very comfortable with the chassis heater and it seems to distribute heat throughout the van to keep it above freezing. I suspect the engine exhaust pipe while driving helps as well. I can feel the heat on the floor from it and it too runs alongside near all the tanks.

 

[Boxster1971]

No. Haven't needed to and I think I have encountered many cold weather situations than most anyone cares to encounter. It's possible to run the Espar while driving but why? The cab area is very comfortable with the chassis heater and it seems to distribute heat throughout the van to keep it above freezing. I suspect the engine exhaust pipe while driving helps as well. I can feel the heat on the floor from it and it too runs alongside near all the tanks.

Thanks - now I understand. You are right the heat from the Sprinter’s HVAC is very good and the exhaust pipe keeps the underside warm.

 

[GallenH]

Davydd: I've done the sea caves in kyak in the summer. COLD water. But I'm thinking that a real UP freezeout should have some polar swimming. Did you?

 

[Davydd]

Davydd: I've done the sea caves in kyak in the summer. COLD water. But I'm thinking that a real UP freezeout should have some polar swimming. Did you?

Not on your life. My wife use to polar plunge in Lake Minnetonka on New Year's day for charity. She did that for 6 straight years. I was the photographer. I don't know if I got the better end of the deal standing still outside for a couple of hours.

 

[avanti]

I am a certified alumnus of the genuine, original Coney Island Polar Bears. Did a New Year's Day swim in the 1970s. I have the card to prove it. And it wasn't just a quick plunge, either. They had medicine balls.