Suggested high capacity alternator 04190P

[rauscs]

I am the original poster. Here are some details.

04C190P
House batteries; 3 lifeline group 31 GPL-31XT 125AH AGM
Coach battery “maintenance free”
Nations 240A 8327-240HP with international regulator
2/0 cable separator to house 125A? Breaker
BlueSea 7622 automatic separator
3 Renogy 100W solar panels
Trimetric monitor and solar controller
Trimetric settings from Bogart:
P1 - 14.3 V
P2 - 0.6%
P3 - 370 Ah
P7 - L3
P8 - set it 0.3 V higher than P15, but lower than the highest voltage your system will tolerate
P10 - 94%
P14 - 2.0 hrs
P15 - 15.3 V
P16 - 13.3 V
P20 - 7%
P21 - 0.5%
P22 - Off

Please let me know if I left anything out. Thanks! Steve

 

[booster]

I am the original poster. Here are some details.

04C190P
House batteries; 3 lifeline group 31 GPL-31XT 125AH AGM
Coach battery “maintenance free”
Nations 240A 8327-240HP with international regulator
2/0 cable separator to house 125A? Breaker
BlueSea 7622 automatic separator
3 Renogy 100W solar panels
Trimetric monitor and solar controller
Trimetric settings from Bogart:
P1 - 14.3 V
P2 - 0.6%
P3 - 370 Ah
P7 - L3
P8 - set it 0.3 V higher than P15, but lower than the highest voltage your system will tolerate
P10 - 94%
P14 - 2.0 hrs
P15 - 15.3 V
P16 - 13.3 V
P20 - 7%
P21 - 0.5%
P22 - Off

Please let me know if I left anything out. Thanks! Steve

First you need to determine if you are really ever getting 100% full and triggering the auto reset of AH counter and SOC readings in the Trimetric,


Do you get to the .5% amps during your charging so that the Trimetric resets? I am suspicious that you are not getting that reset so the Trimetric may have gotten very far out of calibration.


I doesn't appear that the Trimetric lights a "fully charged" indicator so you would need to pay attention to SOC or AH counter to see if it resets to zero. For a quick check, I would check the resting for a couple of hours battery voltage with no loads or charging, voltage. Depending on the age and condition of the batteries you should see 12.8 to as high as 13.1v on them.


Once you have the meter issue confirmed or straightened out, check the charging voltage at the batteries from the Trimetric during your long drives. I think you meant that the alternator has an "internal" regulator and those have their own ideas of charge control so the voltage could be anywhere from 13.5-14.7 depending on the regulator. To get good acceptance and charging amps you need to be in the 14.3v range for the full time it takes to get to the .5%C amps.


If you are counting on the solar to finish off the charge to full, your settings likely won't be able to do that, it appears, because the maximum absorption time is set to only 2 hours and that timer will also count the time that the alternator is holding the voltage at absorption. Lifelines at 50% SOC are going to take something like 8 hours at absorption to get to the .5%C amps of charging. This time is the biggest issue with AGM batteries as most charging equipment doesn't charge that long. Many/most users of battery monitors that realize that they aren't getting full can't do anything about it with the equipment they have so they wind up changing the .5% to a much higher value so they can get the resets of the Trimetric to keep the readings of amp hours and SOC accurate. They are really just redefining what "full" is for them to a lower value than the rated capacity of their batteries.


Your low current to the batteries may just be because the batteries have more charge in them than the monitor is showing you because of no resets, and if they are at 70% instead of 55% you would already be into the current tapering phase of the AGM charge profile.


Our GC2 Lifelines would accept over .6C when at 50% discharge so I would expect you could see as much as 180 amps if the alternator could deliver that much and hold voltage.

 

[phantomjock]

You have not mentioned the age of your house battery bank.
You began this thread 2 years back.
Were they new then - or are they now aging out?
That could be a factor - not only for charging, but your plan.

Just a thought from the peanut gallery.

 

[rauscs]

Thanks booster for the usual concise and thoughtful post.

On a trip now, but should be home in a couple weeks. I’ll get the readings you suggested then. My solar stopped charging at the beginning of the trip (goood timing).

When the solar was working before the trip, batteries would usually be high 90’s in the morning, and top out to 100%.

Batteries are 4 years old.

Steve

 

[rauscs]

Hi booster - can you suggest any changes to my trimetric settings that may help me reach the 100% SOC and reset the counters while driving?
Steve

 

[booster]

Hi booster - can you suggest any changes to my trimetric settings that may help me reach the 100% SOC and reset the counters while driving?
Steve

The Trimetric meter can't do anything to get you to 100% full, but it can tell you if you are there, or not. The solar controller part can. I would guess that very few actually get to 100% on a regular basis with lead acid batteries because few chargers can get them there. Driving is a way to help get there though, if you drive long enough and the alternator regulator matches the profile you need. Solar can do the final top off.

The settings for the Trimetric that would indicate full Lifeline batteries are pretty simple

P1 setpoint voltage would be absorption voltage that Lifeline wants at 14.1-14.3v or so.

P2 is the amount of amps going to the batteries that you need to get below while at absorption voltage. Lifeline wants .5% of you rated 20hr capacity of 375ah. 250X.005=1.875 amps which is a tiny amount. New Lifelines will be able to get there or lower, but older ones may not even get there. Ours are 8 years old and still get to .5% and lower.

P3 is your 20 rated capacity of 375ah

P12 is the automatic reset to 100% when the above conditions are met when charging.

The solar controller settings are tough sometimes because of the hugely varying output you get from solar. The Trimetric is better than many in that it controls the absorption stage off the meter and will stay in absorption until the above conditions are met. The downside of this is that it might get "stuck" in absorption for long periods of time is the sun is not good enough to produce enough power to hold the absorption voltage. In itself that isn't all that bad, but if the batteries are full and it gets stuck just below absorption you can get a minor overcharge that way.

I will need to go and get a look at the SC2030 controller instructions to see how they do some things like determine when to go back into bulk charging and what they are doing with what the call the "finish charge", and then see how those settings set. That might take a day or two to get to.

Basic solar settings generically would absorption at 14.3v, 10 hours max absorption time, .5%C amps for float transition, 3-5 minutes hold time at absorption before float once conditions met, float at 13.1v, rebulk at 12.6v.


On edit:


P14 sets the max absorption time. I would put it at 10-12hr range


P15 sets max voltage during finish charge, which you will probably set to off, so set this the same as absorption voltage


P16 Float voltage 13.1v


P20 Percent overcharge before float. You will control by amps so you can set this to zero so it will go to float quickly if sun comes up on full batteries.


P21 this it the percent of capacity in amps to use on finish charge, which I don't think you should use. The instructions say you can set % or off so set to off.


I didn't see anything about a setting for rebulk, so can't do that it appears.

 

[rauscs]

Thanks! I need to get my solar working again, and will let you know how things go after that. -Steve

 

[rauscs]

Please see my responses in RED below:

First you need to determine if you are really ever getting 100% full and triggering the auto reset of AH counter and SOC readings in the Trimetric,


Do you get to the .5% amps during your charging so that the Trimetric resets? I am suspicious that you are not getting that reset so the Trimetric may have gotten very far out of calibration.


I doesn't appear that the Trimetric lights a "fully charged" indicator so you would need to pay attention to SOC or AH counter to see if it resets to zero. For a quick check, I would check the resting for a couple of hours battery voltage with no loads or charging, voltage. Depending on the age and condition of the batteries you should see 12.8 to as high as 13.1v on them.


I did this "resting" voltage test and it came out at 13.1V.

I did go through the calibration, and am now confident that the charge% is correct on the TM. Currently at 66% charge, with AH counter at -162 of the 370 total, which calculates out to be correct. At one point after calibration it did show 100%, with AH of zero, so it got to 100% on the alternator during a long drive

I've done a couple tests of what the alternator is producing:
1) House 12.6V, Chassis 14.5V, Charge 57%, 85 Total Amps from alternator
2) House 14.3V, Chassis 14.5V, Charge 67%, 48 Total Amps from alternator

What can I do to figure this out / improve performance?

Thanks - Steve





Once you have the meter issue confirmed or straightened out, check the charging voltage at the batteries from the Trimetric during your long drives. I think you meant that the alternator has an "internal" regulator and those have their own ideas of charge control so the voltage could be anywhere from 13.5-14.7 depending on the regulator. To get good acceptance and charging amps you need to be in the 14.3v range for the full time it takes to get to the .5%C amps.


If you are counting on the solar to finish off the charge to full, your settings likely won't be able to do that, it appears, because the maximum absorption time is set to only 2 hours and that timer will also count the time that the alternator is holding the voltage at absorption. Lifelines at 50% SOC are going to take something like 8 hours at absorption to get to the .5%C amps of charging. This time is the biggest issue with AGM batteries as most charging equipment doesn't charge that long. Many/most users of battery monitors that realize that they aren't getting full can't do anything about it with the equipment they have so they wind up changing the .5% to a much higher value so they can get the resets of the Trimetric to keep the readings of amp hours and SOC accurate. They are really just redefining what "full" is for them to a lower value than the rated capacity of their batteries.


Your low current to the batteries may just be because the batteries have more charge in them than the monitor is showing you because of no resets, and if they are at 70% instead of 55% you would already be into the current tapering phase of the AGM charge profile.


Our GC2 Lifelines would accept over .6C when at 50% discharge so I would expect you could see as much as 180 amps if the alternator could deliver that much and hold voltage.

 

[booster]

You have a big voltage drop at 85amps that is likely limiting the charge rate a lot. The fact that the chassis battery is at 14.5v it would appear that you have some big resistance in the wiring to the coach batteries.


I think you need to check all you wire sizes in those lines, connections, breakers, fuses, etc to see where the voltage drop is coming. Just check the voltage at every connection point and list them in order of location front to rear, and it should give a good indication of what is going on.

 

[rauscs]

In the previous example I gave with the large difference in voltages, I must have taken the sample too soon after starting the engine. Apologies.

Measuring the voltage at the battery vs at the breaker in the electrical compartment, with the breaker off, so no house battery involvement - I get a drop of 0.2 volts.

When all is connected and the car is running, the largest difference between the chassis and house voltages (given a minute to settle) that I see is .3V.

Over the last couple days, after giving things a couple minutes to settle:
1) House 14.1V, Chassis 14.3V, Charge 60%, 130 Total Amps from alternator
2) House 13.9V, Chassis 14.1V, Charge 63%, 67 Total Amps from alternator

After 15 minutes idling, alternator temp 180degrees
3) House 14.0V, Chassis 14.2V, Charge 55%, 78 Total Amps from alternator

Really appreciate your help!
Steve

 

[rauscs]

Any more feedback? I've been trying to get some suggestions from Nations, but am having trouble getting answers.

Any and all input is appreciated.

 

[booster]

I've already added a high-output alternator, but it is not providing as much output as I was hoping. I've got another thread regarding that:https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f23/suggested-high-capacity-alternator-04190p-11671.html. I am playing phone tag with Nations on causation. Looking again at a dual setup, but not finding kits.

We've got 3 Lifeline 125AH AGM's, and the original alternator took forever to charge them (still happening with the high-output alternator).

I did talk with Nations, and their kit starts at 2006. I've seen that at other providers as well.

Thanks!

I was in on that thread and I thought it was taken care of. Have you gone down to 50%, which is of no hazard to your batteries, to see what the charge rate is there. As soon as you try guess at what your rate should be in the higher than even 65% full, you will likely be wrong. On our 440ah Lifeline setup we would charge at 180 amps, which is .4C, until not even 70% full most of the time and then it would start to taper. By 80% it was very much lower than 180 amps at well under 100 amps and by 90% dowon in the 20s amps.


Until you get a recharge from 50% so looking for around 190ah down from totally full (us the amp hours because we don't know at this point if the % SOC is accurate because of settings and getting a reset at full.


I would take them down to about 12.3v after no load resting for a few hours and then start you recharge at 1404-14.6v in absorption and look at the amps after about 5-10 minutes when initial inrush is over.


I would not invest in a second alternator until you do this test if it were mine to do.


What amps do you think you should be getting?

 

[rauscs]

Thanks Jim, I'll take it down to 50% and see what happens. Keep you posted.

 

[phantomjock]

Any more feedback? I've been trying to get some suggestions from Nations, but am having trouble getting answers.

Any and all input is appreciated.

They are not the only game in town...
It might pay to shop around. At least make some contacts.

Best of luck.

Cheers - Jim

 

[rauscs]

Hey Jim - true, they aren't the only folks around, but since I bought the HO alternator from them, I'm looking to them first. We'll see how it goes!

 

[booster]

Hey Jim - true, they aren't the only folks around, but since I bought the HO alternator from them, I'm looking to them first. We'll see how it goes!

How big is the alternator you bought?


Found it, you had 240 amps in the first post.


The internal regulator may be giving you some issues if it maxes at 14.3v but really shouldn't do that. If it runs at 14.3 and can hold that you only see 14 at the coach batteries unless they are high SOC. A higher setting on the absorption volt to around 1406v would give better results by some amount, but not much if in high SOC, only at lower SOC and early in absorption. I think the "normal" Chevy regulators are around 14.3v for later vehicles and about 13.9v for the older ones and finding higher voltage in an internal may be hard to do without it being a fixed voltage one. You will probably also find the internal regulator will take it to float way before the batteries are fully charge. Every internal one I have watched did that.


Seeing what you get at the start of charging at 175ah down will tell a lot about it all, I think, including how hot the alternator will get if the amps go up a lot.

 

[rauscs]

Got some data. Brought SOC down to 48%, left it with no load overnight, and did some testing this afternoon. Attached is a PDF with the data. Max alternator output was 150A, rapidly tapering down. First test was 12:40 to 1:20, then our dog had a vet appointment, so I stopped. Restarted later in the afternoon. Hopefully this data makes sense - I'm not sure what's up with the total alternator Amps vs House Amps...

The Charge# vs AH required to 100% ("AH" on the trimetric) #s seem to pencil out right with the 375AH AGMs. In other words, the trimetric seems to be calculating the %Charge correctly.

The alternator is not putting out the juice I expected, even with 50%
charge to start.

Might see if we can move the last portion of this thread over to my first one: https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f23/suggested-high-capacity-alternator-04190p-11671.html.

Appreciate any and all feedback!

 

[tlillard23]

the 13.9v Booster referenced wasn't that the limp mode voltage? and shouldn't the nations alternator charge at 14.8? I do see they mention "- Universal regulator circuit adapts to internal or external sensing as well as PCM or ignition excitation with lamp control". That seems highly unlikely to do PCM or excitation voltage with the same circuit?

RAUSCS - - how and where do you have the alternator "control" wires hooked up? 4 pin? 2 pin? or 1 wire? on nations site it loks like a 4 pin?

EDIT: have you checked all the connections re-tight, and with a non-contact thermometer to see if any of the connections are hot?

 

[booster]

the 13.9v Booster referenced wasn't that the limp mode voltage? and shouldn't the nations alternator charge at 14.8? I do see they mention "- Universal regulator circuit adapts to internal or external sensing as well as PCM or ignition excitation with lamp control". That seems highly unlikely to do PCM or excitation voltage with the same circuit?

RAUSCS - - how and where do you have the alternator "control" wires hooked up? 4 pin? 2 pin? or 1 wire? on nations site it loks like a 4 pin?

EDIT: have you checked all the connections re-tight, and with a non-contact thermometer to see if any of the connections are hot?

I had fits with the internal regulators when I first got them from Nations in the alternators. They were running as high as 15+v when cold out and 14.6+v when normal temps. They do multistep down though and "float" appeared to be in the 14.2v, which is too high for the Lifeline AGMs or even the chassis wet cell on long drives.



I think the regulators come from DC Power Engineering and I was about to get one from DCP that was a 14.1v/ 13.2v one. I checked with a local alternator shop about regulators and they said they were standard voltage non PCM controlled regulators like GM provided. He said they came from GM in and higher voltage of 14.6v base voltage on newer non PCM controlled like my 07 van and at 14.1v base voltage on older ones like my 96 Buick Roadmaster 5.7l.


AFAIK, limp mode is only for PCM controlled stuff.

 

[rauscs]

I couldn't tell you what is connected to what - The alternator was plug compatible and I just plugged it into the factory harness. I will check connections for heat.
Thanks!