Safety while traveling, gun laws in Canada

[Flashman]

I was looking into this Mike, because I'd like at some point to go "way North" where the roads run out...

And, what I was finding is that while you're legal with one branch of gov, you're getting illegal with another... basically, you can get into trouble "transporting" a firearm, unless you have a outdoors license and/or tag for something that is in season... and that's before you cross provincial or federal parks where hunting and/or firearms are banned. Also technically, you've gotta be transporting a firearm to somewhere, "taking it along for the ride" is not allowed. There are also problems where many officers, especially in an RV situation will misapply "storage" rules, when you are in compliance with "transportation" rules.

So you think "Fine then, I'll get a frickin' high power crossbow" ... heh... and it gets even muddier there, sometimes it's included in the definition of firearm and sometimes it isn't....

OTOH, it's completely legal to "open carry" any sized sheath knife on your belt, but you will have to have that tested in court if you walk around a "civilised" area and a cop sees it (They can make stuff up as they go along in case you've never noticed.) Plus if they feel like it, they can have nearly any folding knife off you, if they can come up with a way you might be able to open it with one hand (Like hold the blade and slam the handle against a table) which would in their view put it within the category of a prohibited "gravity knife".

Our laws are a mess, inconsistent, badly written and misinterpreted.


Flashman

[Mike]

As I said, and it's still just my opinion,
"As regards getting stopped and searched in Canada as a Canadian legal gun owner, carrying a legal, registered, non-restricted firearm. I would imagine it often comes down to the mood of the peace officer that finds the weapon, and what you do and say.
Just my opinions, though. YMMV. "

IMO, if you are in possession of a non-restricted firearm that is properly locked, and not loaded, and
you have a valid PAL for that type of firearm, you aren't breaking any laws. However, if you are
stopped and found to be in possession of a restricted firearm, you better have the ATT and your
PAL-R with you, and be on your way to the range or some other valid destination like a gun show or a shooting competition. This question was raised at the PAL/OHEC courses I took 2 years ago, and that's basically what the instructors said. If you get stopped by the wrong peace officer, at the wrong place/time, the way the situation will unfold largely depends on you, and how you react and deal with it.

[Flashman]

Yeah, what I was getting though, that even with unrestricted that you don't need an ATT to transport, the definition of transport is that you are taking it somewhere specific currently. Like I've heard of cases where a guy has been stopped Monday morning on the way to work after shooting Sunday with the unrestricted firearm properly secured in the car, but still in it, and got into crap. Of course he should have said he was going again on the way home from work or something, but still that's having to work within the definition of "transport".

Anyway, it would be best to have a solid explanation to hand such as "I am transporting it to my rented property (campsite) to use for predator control during my time there." Don't say campsite, because even though it's a legally rented property, and you have the same rights as a rented property, it's not gonna make the same connotation in a policeman mind if you say campsite.

Then since possession of a firearm is taken as prima facae evidence that you are hunting by a game warden, you better have a hunting license for something in season if you meet a game warden. They don't want to lose the powers they've got in the courts, so wouldn't do something quite as stupid as walking into a shooting range and charging everyone with hunting out of season, but technically they could.

[Mike]

I think you may be applying the "transport" concept as it applies to restricted, to a non-restricted
firearm? Or, I may be misinterpreting what you said. I agree that it's legally a murky subject in
Canada.
If it's restricted then transport applies, as in ATT.
If it's non-restricted, possession applies, as far as I know. I don't think it matters legally where
you're headed, unless the peace officer wants to make it an issue, for some other obvious reason,
like he smells alcohol, or you're otherwise uncooperative, or agitated. As you said, it may help to
have a destination, real or imaginary at the ready, just in case, but even that may not save you.
By definition, you are in legal possession of an unrestricted firearm, stored properly in your vehicle,
and that's all that matters legally, I would think. If he/she wants to ruin both of your days over where
you've been or where you're going that could happen, I suppose.
Having read numerous stories and articles on confrontations between citizens and police over
firearms possession, it is my opinion that the problems are largely due to over-reaction by one or
both parties, and most bad situations have been self-inflicted.
I just hope I never find out.
You may want to visit some of the websites that discuss things like this, and you may find some
better info and opinions on it.
My knowledge is a layman's version at best, from what I can remember from my firearms courses.
Here are some good ones I've found......
http://www.firearmscanada.com/
http://www.canadiangunnutz.com/
http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/

[AZ ADVenturist]

Kinda' wanting to keep this discussion going - esp. for any new participants planning their trip to Great White North & AK this summer...
I am NOT convinced that traveling with a firearm is a great idea either Canada OR USA.
I own guns, have taken 'Concealed Carry' course in Ariz. and now don't even need a CCW permit to carry in Ariz.(what a Joke)!
So here is what I plan to take along on our Expedition North:

http://counterassault.com/html/beardeterrent.html

Watch the video! It is developed in Montana (another Gun-Nut state, I know I grew-up there).
They have actual Grizzly Bears. And I would Not hesitate to use it against a Human Predator as well - then get the Hell out of there!
Just MHO - YMMV!!
Ric. in Arizona

[Mike]

Keep in mind that whatever you bring in as a "spray deterrent" for an attacker/aggressor, it must
be clearly marked as dog or bear spray. In the case you use it on a human attacker or aggressor,
be prepared to explain why to a peace officer, if/when asked.
I think I mentioned the distinction and caveat on using it on anything other than an attacking animal
way back in this thread in my first post (which I tried to reformat, as it looked really ugly as first posted).

[AZ ADVenturist]

YEA, I remember that post. Point well taken We stand advised. Thnx - Mike.

[Mike]

My caveats in that post still stand as well, not an expert on firearms or the exact interpretation
of the Canadian laws governing their possession, transportation, storage, or use. Not a lawyer either.
Let's hope none of us ever needs one regarding them.


Wish things had unfolded differently over this last year, would love to do Alaska.
Someday.

[AZ ADVenturist]

I thought this thread was dead. But now the shooting news from Toronto - so sad.
Condolences to Our Canadian friends. I hope it doesn't discourage any one traveling to the Great White North this summer. It is still safer than Arizona where Everyone is packin' without training or concealed permit. Ric. in Arid-Zona

[Mike]

Thanks Ric. Nasty situation there, and you can bet the weapon(s) used were illegal. It was also
more than likely local gang related and/or drug related. Maybe revenge or retaliation for something.
Police (probably Toronto) have already identified the likely shooter, and are looking for him now.
These incidents are extremely rare up here, and as far as I know, you're right about Canada
and overall safety.

[AZ ADVenturist]

I guess I wouldn't have thought so much about the drug &/or gang factor in Canada. I thought we in the U.S. had a corner on that market. In addition to our illegal border crossers & drug cartels from South of here. But I guess bad people do bad things no matter where they are located.
The standard "joke" (not so funny) among Canadians I talk to down here is that they haven't been shot in Ariz. yet & hope they can make it back home again. It's not really so bad here, but I don't go out at night in So. Phoenix either. We live in a nice quiet area outside of Prescott. And mind our own business.

[Mike]

Avoidance is probably the best way to stay safe. We always try to be aware of our surroundings.
One of the problems we (Canadians) face when traveling in the US is, you have a constitutional right
to protect yourselves, if you choose to. We don't, and a foreign license plate often says "victim" to
the baddies. They can pretty much assume we won't shoot back, because we can't. Legally.
That scares me sometimes.

[AZ ADVenturist]

Oh fine now comes the 2nd Amendment debate. As I read it, We the People (of U.S.) have a Constitutional right to Keep & Bear Arms as a WELL REGULATED MILTIA (Armed forces, Nat'l Guard, Law Enforcement etc). As far as privately owning firearms, I believe that is a privilege (not a right) that can only be maintained through careful & thoughtful responsibility. And can, will be & has been revoked for probable cause.
As regards self defense - Thom. Jefferson made that Declaration to K. Geo. III in the clause "Life, Liberty & the Pursuit of Happiness" as GOD given rights, but still not Constitutional. And I think the State of Florida & Geo. Zimmerman got it wrong too.
I do however believe that any of us, You, I or any one has a Civil Right & Duty & God given right to protect our selves & Family with Reasonable force if threatened or attacked.
BTW - I own firearms, have taken classes for Concealed Carry, have hunted & killed animals (no more). But I DO Not buy into the rabid Gun Culture so prevalent in the U.S. and especially Ariz. & Montana. I support more training & education. Licensing for Concealed Carry, enforcement of existing laws, not more laws. I believe that handguns should be registered & eventually taken out of private citizens hands to prevent law breakers obtaining them.
Whew, didn't know I had so many opinions! but that's about 1.5 cents FWIW!!

[Mike]

Originally Posted by AZ ADVenturist

As far as privately owning firearms, I believe that is a privilege (not a right) that can only be maintained through careful & thoughtful responsibility. And can, will be & has been revoked for probable cause.
As regards self defense -
I do however believe that any of us, You, I or any one has a Civil Right & Duty & God given right to protect our selves & Family with Reasonable force if threatened or attacked.
BTW - I own firearms, have taken classes for Concealed Carry, have hunted & killed animals (no more). But I DO Not buy into the rabid Gun Culture so prevalent in the U.S. and especially Ariz. & Montana. I support more training & education. Licensing for Concealed Carry, enforcement of existing laws, not more laws. I believe that handguns should be registered & eventually taken out of private citizens hands to prevent law breakers obtaining them.
Whew, didn't know I had so many opinions! but that's about 1.5 cents FWIW!!

I would agree with most of the sentiments expressed in your post. Opinions are good. That's
what discussion forums are for, aren't they?
I'm also qualified/licensed for the safe handling of all types of non-prohibited firearms in
Canada. Safety first, always. I used to target shoot rimfire, but that was many years ago.
I've never hunted. I largely don't believe it's much of a sport to sneak up on, or otherwise
deceive an animal, and shoot it. I understand it in some circumstances, like obtaining food
for your family. I'm not a PETA person, it's just not my cup of tea. Personal opinion.

I simply would like the option to protect myself, my family, and my property with any and all
reasonable force as is necessary if threatened or attacked, by any predatory animal. That
would include possession of an effective defensive weapon, no matter where we happen to
be traveling. Sometimes flight isn't an option, and I'd like to be able to resort to fight in a
defensive sense, if necessary. It always reminds me of the joke about gun control and CCW
"when seconds count, a cop is only minutes away" regarding having a defensive weapon to
repel an attack, versus calling 911 and waiting for police while you're assaulted or possibly
worse.
We've registered handguns up here for decades, and it does not prevent them from falling
into the wrong hands. So called restricted firearms, too, and they also often wind up in the
hands of bad people. I do think much of the problem is drug/gang related, and I'm not sure
what the answer to fixing that is, besides very, very, complex.
It might be nice if there were a "free trade" agreement on carrying firearms across borders
between Canada and the US. By legal owners only, of course.
Again, these are my opinions, and I'm not trying to sway or convince others that they are
any more or less valid than anyone else's.

[AZ ADVenturist]

Well said & I think WE mostly agree on the larger points. Finer points are subject to change within our own minds as information & circumstances become more clearly focused.
I wouldn't want to wade into this with either PETA or NRA. Thanks for the thought exercise! R.

[Mike]

My pleasure, always.