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Old 06-21-2018, 12:36 AM   #41
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Default Mike... thank you for bringing this to my attention... Really..

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Originally Posted by Boxster1971 View Post
My 2013 Airstream Interstate does not have a sticker with OCCC. Mine only has the GVWR on the Airstream sticker that has same 11,030 GVWR as the Mercedes sticker on the driver seat base.

The 2013's owners manual does have carry capacity info that looks a lot like your Roadtrek with a Net Carrying Capacity (NCC) of 2,900 lbs., but that was for a 22"-9" Sprinter. Mine was the first year they offered the 24'-5" Sprinters. But even the newest Airstream manuals don't use the term OCCC. Aistream is still using NCC. The 2018 manual for a van like mine says the NCC is only 1,643 lbs. Much more realistic

The labeling of OCCC was first required in 2007 by a rule from NHTSA at this link if you want the gory details and commnets made by the RVDA (RV Dealers Association) and RVIA (RV Industry Association).
https://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-200...f/E7-22962.pdf

I did find several bits of correspondence between Thor and NHTSA that indicate they have a lot of flexibility on OCCC labeling, especially with regard to passengers. NHTSA ultimately wants to be sure the GVWR is clearly labled.
https://s3.amazonaws.com/public-insp...2014-21884.pdf

... and this one from 2009
https://isearch.nhtsa.gov/files/08-003469drn-rev.htm

RVIA and RVDA asked for reconsiderations of the 2007 ruling that NHTSA denied in 2010. Your government in action from a petition submitted by an RV owner in 2000 got final decison 10 years later in 2010. All this because RV owners are not required to get their rigs weighed like commercial trucks. So owners expect to get labels to tell them how much they can carry. But its all a smoke screen as neither the RVDA and RVIA want NHTSA to impose a rule that RV must get weight checked like commercial trucks. Not unlike the fact that most states let you drive a big RV rig with no special license.

Here is link to a long discussion on OCCC in Unity subforum of the Sprinter-Source forum.
https://sprinter-source.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=31868

My impression is Roadtrek and LTV as Canadian companies are just following the letter of the NHTSA ruling. While Thor and Aistream just continuing their own CCC or NCC labels.

Its all a game as I discovered in a NHTSA posting some weeks back while searching for some unrelated information on vehicle safety standards. I stumbled across the paragraph below on a NHTSA FAQ web page.

https://icsw.nhtsa.gov/cars/rules/im...ges/page4.html

8. Overloaded Recreational Vehicle (RV).
The FMVSS have requirements for the manufacturer to use proper tires and rims for the gross axle weight rating (GAWR) and the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). The manufacturer may determine the GVWR by adding cargo capacity (if any) to the curb weight of the vehicle as manufactured. The wise consumer, before purchase, will determine if the vehicle has sufficient cargo capacity to carry the weight of water, additional equipment (such as televisions, and microwave ovens), and luggage. The manufacturer’s certification label must show the GVWR. The GVWR must not be exceeded by overloading the vehicle. There is little the government can do to assist a consumer who has purchased a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for its intended use.

The highlighted red text above is all you will get from our government regarding Overloaded RVs.

I'll get off my soap box now.
Mike;

In addition to speaking personally with Nevin at Roadtrek today I took the time and went out to have the vehicle weighed. It was weighed with me in the van, full tank of water and propane and a full tank of diesel or nearly full, close enough.

We also have dishes and some clothes on board along with some toiletries in the bathroom. There's even some pots and pans which are cast iron so they are pretty heavy and cleaning supplies.

SO... final verdict.... 9,200 pounds with me in the driver's seat. Here's a screen shot for you... it was 4,200 pounds on the steer axle and 5,000 pounds on the drive axle. Mind you, the extra heavy duty sway bar and new trac bar are installed on the rear...plus, I would expect it to be heavier there because of the dual wheels.

If I load my wife in, let's call it another 200 pounds .. SO... we're talking 9,400 pounds and that leaves me with a grand remaining total of 1,630 pounds of remaining head room before I reach the magic number of 11,030 which is the total weight capacity of my vehicle.

I would say that Roadtrek was pretty close to being right on the money... remember I had a full load of water, fuel and propane....

Let's say that the base weight without the fuel, water, propane is around 8,700.... if you subtract that from 11,030 ... you get 2,330.... don't forget I added the new Koni FSD shocks, solar panel, track bar and beefed up sway bar.... and I have some stuff loaded on the rig as I previously mentioned. I'm going to give the guys at Roadtrek a big for their efforts...

Don't really know what you mean when you said that Airstream and Thor used their own CCC.... do you mean that they might have just made that up... ??? If so, that's SAD.. I'm NOT impressed with THOR products at all... I have seen their rigs and think they are of poor quality.

I did see your figures of having only 1,643 pounds .... so, our two vans are VERY CLOSE.... .

I know someone else who has a 2008 RS Adventurous on the Sprinter 2500 and single wheels.... he definitely has a weight issue...

I read with interest your paragraph that the government offers little or no assistance to people who purchase a vehicle that has insufficient cargo capacity for it's intended use.. I guess the operative word here is "insufficient".. what defines that exactly... I am always surprised to hear that people with these enormous Class A's have lots of space.. but, they can't fill it all the way up or try and have an accident..

I'm NOT an attorney... but, I'm sure there's some laws on the books about the "implied warranty of fitness for normal use" and the goods must reasonably conform to an ordinary's buyer's expectations.. etc.

Maybe some legal expert can weigh in on that?? I don't know...

FOR the moment... I'm happy that my 2012 RS Adventurous is definitely NOT over loaded and I could even take some extra passengers along with me..

Again.... it's mainly just the two of us on trips... these B's are really designed for ONE or two people.. that's it. The front bed option of 22 by 76 is really small.

SO, if we took two extra people they certainly wouldn't tip the scales even if we had an extra 200 pounds of clothing, camp chairs and other stuff... clothes and extra water... which I would account for....

Finally... on a sad note... stopped at REI today...I was hoping that the Kuat bicycle rack would fit on my vehicle... it does NOT.... so, i can save another 150 pounds for that which I figured in an earlier post....

The guy at REI said.... can you rearrange the location of your hitch receiver??? That would be a huge "NO:

Even if I could ... I'm not sure it's worth the expense... already that bike rack, etc. would have cost more than $1,000

Mike... thank you once again for getting me motivated to find out the real story on all this... NOW I can sleep well knowing that I'm good to go on the road with no overloads.

Cheers,

--Mark
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Old 06-21-2018, 02:00 AM   #42
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Mark - great that you now have weights on each axle. We can then talk another level of detail often over looked on RV weight issues. That is individual axle ratings. Do you realized your Sprinter is overweight on the the front axle?

Sprinters with a 11,030 GVWR come with a rear axle rated at 7,720 lbs., but two different front axles. The standard front axle is rated at 4,080 lbs., which is what your Roadtrek door sticker shows as you posted earlier.

The heavy duty front axle, that I have on my Airstream, is rated at 4,410 lbs.

Roadtrek saved a few bucks and didn't option the heavy duty front axle. This is a very common thing in the RV industry and one reason I said those OCCC ratings are marketing hype. You have discovered one of the dirty little secrets of the RV industry.

Your CAT weight sheet indicated your front (steer) axle weight is 4,200 lbs with just you in driver's seat. Add your wife and you would be about 300 lbs overweight on that axle.

Now call Roadtrek back and ask them how they can sell a van with a big OCCC, but with an overloaded front axle with just two people in cab area.

This is the main reason every RV owner needs to get their rig weighed. I have one friend who had a large Tifin Super-C RV that had the wrong rear axle installed and he was way overloaded. Tifin did the right thing and replaced the rear axle after he showed them the actual weight data.

The good news is if you add that bike rack and two bikes to back of your van you might actually reduce the load on your front axle.

Travel safe,


- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream
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Old 06-21-2018, 03:58 AM   #43
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Default Should I get a heavier duty front axle???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxster1971 View Post
Mark - great that you now have weights on each axle. We can then talk another level of detail often over looked on RV weight issues. That is individual axle ratings. Do you realized your Sprinter is overweight on the the front axle?

Sprinters with a 11,030 GVWR come with a rear axle rated at 7,720 lbs., but two different front axles. The standard front axle is rated at 4,080 lbs., which is what your Roadtrek door sticker shows as you posted earlier.

The heavy duty front axle, that I have on my Airstream, is rated at 4,410 lbs.

Roadtrek saved a few bucks and didn't option the heavy duty front axle. This is a very common thing in the RV industry and one reason I said those OCCC ratings are marketing hype. You have discovered one of the dirty little secrets of the RV industry.

Your CAT weight sheet indicated your front (steer) axle weight is 4,200 lbs with just you in driver's seat. Add your wife and you would be about 300 lbs overweight on that axle.

Now call Roadtrek back and ask them how they can sell a van with a big OCCC, but with an overloaded front axle with just two people in cab area.

This is the main reason every RV owner needs to get their rig weighed. I have one friend who had a large Tifin Super-C RV that had the wrong rear axle installed and he was way overloaded. Tifin did the right thing and replaced the rear axle after he showed them the actual weight data.

The good news is if you add that bike rack and two bikes to back of your van you might actually reduce the load on your front axle.

Travel safe,


- - Mike
2012 Sprinter 3500 Extended converted B-Van by Airstream
Mike, yes, I understand what you're saying.... I'll call Roadtrek back and discuss...
Unfortunately, the Kuat bicycle rack NV2 is not going to work on my vehicle... couldn't open rear doors... clearance problem...

You realize that the fresh water tank is right up front under the passengers seat area....

I did put heavy duty shocks ... KONI FSD shocks on the front...IS this a problem?

I normally carry extra gear in the rear compartment... but, it was empty when I had the vehicle weighed.....

MY problem with the other bicycle racks was that Yakima and Thule both told me they would not warranty the product for use on my Sprinter...

I'd really like to get your opinion on what to do if Roadtrek says not to worry about it??
Accept their answer?? Do you think they're going to acknowledge it??

I didn't purchase this RV brand new...so, I don't think I have much recourse with them....and it's hard to go back to the people who sold me this ...?

OK... my wife in the passengers seat will add another 200 pounds.. it's all on the front?
If that's true it would be 4,400 pounds on the front??

How does additional weight in the back lower the front numbers even with my wife in the passengers seat??

On occasion we do carry an easy up that weighs about 50 pounds and two camp chairs that weigh 40 pounds..so, 90 additional pounds in the back... will that help..?

I can clearly see that the upper weight capacity is in the back... trouble is the ride in the back is clearly less smooth...

In fact, the coach originally came with four seats up front..two additional seats behind the driver's and front passenger... Four seats up front and three on the bench seat in the back...
The rear bench seat is a little bumpy...the new shocks sway bar and tracking bar did help a little... BUT, it's still a much better ride in the front.....

Let me know what you think..

---MARK
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Old 06-22-2018, 03:00 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1 View Post
Mike, yes, I understand what you're saying.... I'll call Roadtrek back and discuss

Unfortunately, the Kuat bicycle rack NV2 is not going to work on my vehicle... couldn't open rear doors... clearance problem...

You realize that the fresh water tank is right up front under the passengers seat area....

I did put heavy duty shocks ... KONI FSD shocks on the front...IS this a problem?
I didn’t realize that Roadtrek put the fresh water tank that far forward. It is adding to the problem.

I don’t think the heavy duty shocks are a problem.

Quote:
I normally carry extra gear in the rear compartment... but, it was empty when I had the vehicle weighed.....

MY problem with the other bicycle racks was that Yakima and Thule both told me they would not warranty the product for use on my Sprinter...

I'd really like to get your opinion on what to do if Roadtrek says not to worry about it??
Accept their answer?? Do you think they're going to acknowledge it??

I didn't purchase this RV brand new...so, I don't think I have much recourse with them....and it's hard to go back to the people who sold me this ...?
I doubt that Roadtrek will be much help, especially since you are not an original owner. They will likely blame the problem on owner modifications. Hopefully they will tell you to increase your front tire pressures, like I discuss below.

Quote:
OK... my wife in the passengers seat will add another 200 pounds.. it's all on the front?
If that's true it would be 4,400 pounds on the front??

How does additional weight in the back lower the front numbers even with my wife in the passengers seat??

On occasion we do carry an easy up that weighs about 50 pounds and two camp chairs that weigh 40 pounds..so, 90 additional pounds in the back... will that help..?
Weight behind the rear axle tends to lift the load on the front axle. Not a lot but some. It’s the same basic principle that a weight distributing trailer hitch tries to prevent. Here is a video on the concept.



Quote:

I can clearly see that the upper weight capacity is in the back... trouble is the ride in the back is clearly less smooth...

In fact, the coach originally came with four seats up front..two additional seats behind the driver's and front passenger... Four seats up front and three on the bench seat in the back...
The rear bench seat is a little bumpy...the new shocks sway bar and tracking bar did help a little... BUT, it's still a much better ride in the front.....

Let me know what you think..

---MARK

Imagine the overload on your front axle if you still had those two additional seats up front with four adults onboard? Again, the RV Industry is just not telling us the truth about weight.

Yes – the ride in back bench seat in these Sprinters without something like VB Airsuspension is brutal.

There is one more dimension of this weight issue I need to bring up now that you know your axle weights. That is corner weights, the load on each wheel. That is the only truly accurate way to assess RV weight issues. It is the method used by RVSEF when they do weighing and why it costs $60.

With 4400 lbs on your front axle it would be good to know the load on each tire. Evenly divided the 4400 lbs would be 2220 lbs on each tire which is well within the 2680 lbs maximum load limit for LT215/85 R16 tires, on 3500 Sprinters. But, at Roadtrek’s recommended front tire pressure of 55 psi, on your data label, the tires are rated for an individual load of 2055 lbs. That means your front tires are overloaded - not good, especially on the front steer axle. At a minimum this will likely cause uneven tire wear. Worst case it could lead to early tire failure.

Source is this handy Michelin RV tire pressure info.
https://www.michelinrvtires.com/reference-materials/load-and-inflation-tables/#/

My priority recommendation is to increase the pressure in your front tires to at least 65 psi. That give you a tire load rating of 2335 lbs. But it would be best to know the right-left load on those tires because it is probably not the same. Let’s say one side is 200 lbs higher. Not uncommon. My first weighing with driver only was 320 lbs heavier on the front left tire than the right front tire. In this example one side of your front axle would be 200 lbs heavier than the other side so one tire would be loaded to 2420 lbs. that means you should have 70 psi on that tire to safely handle the load.

I know this get complicated and probably why the RV industry does not pay attention to the loads like commercial truckers.

Hope this helps more than hurts,
- - Mike
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Old 06-22-2018, 06:04 AM   #45
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Default This is good to know... thanks... here's some more information to share with you

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxster1971 View Post
I didn’t realize that Roadtrek put the fresh water tank that far forward. It is adding to the problem.

I don’t think the heavy duty shocks are a problem.


I doubt that Roadtrek will be much help, especially since you are not an original owner. They will likely blame the problem on owner modifications. Hopefully they will tell you to increase your front tire pressures, like I discuss below.



Weight behind the rear axle tends to lift the load on the front axle. Not a lot but some. It’s the same basic principle that a weight distributing trailer hitch tries to prevent. Here is a video on the concept.






Imagine the overload on your front axle if you still had those two additional seats up front with four adults onboard? Again, the RV Industry is just not telling us the truth about weight.

Yes – the ride in back bench seat in these Sprinters without something like VB Airsuspension is brutal.

There is one more dimension of this weight issue I need to bring up now that you know your axle weights. That is corner weights, the load on each wheel. That is the only truly accurate way to assess RV weight issues. It is the method used by RVSEF when they do weighing and why it costs $60.

With 4400 lbs on your front axle it would be good to know the load on each tire. Evenly divided the 4400 lbs would be 2220 lbs on each tire which is well within the 2680 lbs maximum load limit for LT215/85 R16 tires, on 3500 Sprinters. But, at Roadtrek’s recommended front tire pressure of 55 psi, on your data label, the tires are rated for an individual load of 2055 lbs. That means your front tires are overloaded - not good, especially on the front steer axle. At a minimum this will likely cause uneven tire wear. Worst case it could lead to early tire failure.

Source is this handy Michelin RV tire pressure info.
https://www.michelinrvtires.com/reference-materials/load-and-inflation-tables/#/

My priority recommendation is to increase the pressure in your front tires to at least 65 psi. That give you a tire load rating of 2335 lbs. But it would be best to know the right-left load on those tires because it is probably not the same. Let’s say one side is 200 lbs higher. Not uncommon. My first weighing with driver only was 320 lbs heavier on the front left tire than the right front tire. In this example one side of your front axle would be 200 lbs heavier than the other side so one tire would be loaded to 2420 lbs. that means you should have 70 psi on that tire to safely handle the load.

I know this get complicated and probably why the RV industry does not pay attention to the loads like commercial truckers.

Hope this helps more than hurts,
- - Mike
Full disclosure....I'm running 62-63 pounds in the front ....they increase to around 68 or 70 when they are warmed up on the highway....

And, 66-69 on the back tires. And they increase to as much as 75 on the highway...
My tire guy said this was OK.... And the tires should last longer....

I put the Koni FSD shocks, sway bar and trac bar to stabilize the tail wagging, pitching and swaying from wind and uneven pavement, speed bumps etc...The cabinets would shake all over just going through intersections.. I had HOPED that the ride would have smoothed out completely, but, it is still a little rough back there.... better.. but not completely smooth...
I NEVER considered air suspension...too much...

I did have a 160 watt ZAMP solar panel installed on the roof.... called the guy who did this and he said the weight of that is minimal....less than 15 pounds...

And, my wife loaded the cabinets above the cab with pots and pans... some cast iron..so, maybe that accounts for 30 or 40 pounds... that's being very much on the high side..

MY tires are Michelin Defender LTV truck tires ... they're in great shape...got them just before my USA trip... maybe 12,000 highway miles?? They still look brand new...and after I got the suspension upgrade.. they did a wheel alignment as well....

The gravity water fill is right inside the passengers door and the water tank is just behind the passengers seat in between the seat and the sliding door...

Question...I know there's a lower drain point on the vehicle right there.. but, it doesn't look easy to open this and seal it back up...I usually run the water through the sinks and toilet to flush and drain the gray and black tanks... In fact, Roadtrek says not to use the city fill...these are more designed to let the tanks fill and drain the black then the gray water to flush out everything... that seems easier..

I did call Roadtrek back today and they asked me to send them the report I shared with you... I'm sure they will get back to me.....

For now..is the coach safe to drive with the slightly overweight condition on the front??

I understand that I might mitigate the overweight condition by adding weight to the rear section of the rig??? How much weight are we talking about??.

I suppose that if I have to be slightly over....it's better in the front than the rear???
At least the front suspension is MacPherson strut suspension as opposed to leaf springs??

Finally..how much would be gained by changing the front axle??? I'd rather not do that if I can avoid it...

YES, I realize that since I'm not the original owner.. they may not help... we'll see...IF they were willing to have me send the information... maybe they will... otherwise, they could have just told me over the phone ...

---MARK
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Old 06-22-2018, 11:00 AM   #46
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Quote:
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...The cabinets would shake all over ...

That's normal.

The bark is worse than the bite.

A little rattle can be amplified to a thunder in any van body.
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Old 06-22-2018, 09:06 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1 View Post
Full disclosure....I'm running 62-63 pounds in the front ....they increase to around 68 or 70 when they are warmed up on the highway....

... For now..is the coach safe to drive with the slightly overweight condition on the front??

I understand that I might mitigate the overweight condition by adding weight to the rear section of the rig??? How much weight are we talking about??.

I suppose that if I have to be slightly over....it's better in the front than the rear???
At least the front suspension is MacPherson strut suspension as opposed to leaf springs??

Finally..how much would be gained by changing the front axle??? I'd rather not do that if I can avoid it...

YES, I realize that since I'm not the original owner.. they may not help... we'll see...IF they were willing to have me send the information... maybe they will... otherwise, they could have just told me over the phone ...

---MARK
Mark - I've got good news!!! I just ran your VIN, that was on the door sticker you posted earlier, into the Mercedes EPC to get your configuration data card. Your Sprinter has the Heavy Duty front axle package. See copy of details from the Sprinter Equipment book.

I have no idea why Roadtrek put the lighter front axle on the door sticker. They also gave you the wrong tire pressure of 55 psi. Mine says 61 psi all around.

I would ask Roadtrek to verify the front axle configuration on your van.

I have a pdf of your Sprinter's data card if you want me to post it. Otherwise send me a forum PM with your email address and I'll email you the data card. The forum software does not support attaching files to PMs.

You can also get a copy of your data card from any Mercedes dealer. Just give the parts guy your VIN and they can print you a copy. That's how I got my first copy before I subscribed to the Mercedes EPC (Electronic Part Catalog). The EPC is $75/year - more Mercedes cost as I can get into the Toyota EPC free.

BTW - Sprinter front suspension does have a strut, but also has a transverse leaf spring.
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Old 06-22-2018, 09:24 PM   #48
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Mark - I just saw you PM. Glad Roadtrek confirmed that they put the wrong door sticker on your van. Sloppy work on their part.

- - Mike
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Old 06-22-2018, 10:43 PM   #49
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Mark - I've got good news!!! I just ran your VIN, that was on the door sticker you posted earlier, into the Mercedes EPC to get your configuration data card. Your Sprinter has the Heavy Duty front axle package. See copy of details from the Sprinter Equipment book.

. . . .



Good job
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