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Old 11-27-2023, 11:27 PM   #1
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Default LiFePo4 at under $200 per 100ah battery

Numerous versions of probably the same battery on there right now.


Very inexpensive and that in itself is kind of scary to me.


Some have very good reviews, but fake reviews are so common now on China made stuff they are pretty useless, I fear.
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Old 11-28-2023, 01:24 AM   #2
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I just priced Fullriver AGMs 115Ah at $400/battery. My current bank of 230 Ah is ten years old so it is time to change before they quit. Going with Lithium would require too much of my time, and would likely require more babysitting I am willing to endure.
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Old 11-28-2023, 01:37 AM   #3
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Found one branded 'Gimywit'.

With a name like that it has to be good.
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Old 11-28-2023, 02:10 AM   #4
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Same size Ė group 31, almost double capacity, 1/3 weight, similar cost.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/12V-200Ah...sRedirect=true

https://fullriverbattery.com/batteries/part-dc115-12/
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Old 11-28-2023, 02:27 AM   #5
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Same size Ė group 31, almost double capacity, 1/3 weight, similar cost.

https://www.walmart.com/ip/12V-200Ah...sRedirect=true

https://fullriverbattery.com/batteries/part-dc115-12/

It looks like they listed at least some of the specs for a 100ah battery.


A 200ah lithium would normally weigh in the 45# range on all of them I looked at, and the ones I bought.
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Old 11-28-2023, 05:52 PM   #6
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It looks like they listed at least some of the specs for a 100ah battery.


A 200ah lithium would normally weigh in the 45# range on all of them I looked at, and the ones I bought.
Walmart Li batteries, whatever takes to make a sale, only a very few folks would check numbers.
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Old 11-28-2023, 06:12 PM   #7
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Walmart Li batteries, whatever takes to make a sale, only a very few folks would check numbers.

When I was shopping for potential batteries I found lots of spec errors on pretty much every spec. Not all brands had errors but many did and often lots of them.



I pretty much always compared specs weed out impossible to be outliers as it is about the only way to be relatively certain what you get is what they say it is.


How many brands claim the same, usually high, cycle life for all depths of discharge down to zero percent? Nearly all the data says that is not correct.
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Old 11-29-2023, 12:34 AM   #8
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I think I may have posted this before...



Maybe they will start giving them away soon.

Also makes you wonder if there are not at least some out there that recycle previously used cells inside of a nice new shiny case that is not easy to open.

The other issue is that the guys doing a tear-down video may get a (or a couple of) free batteries with really good quality cells and soldering etc, but then what the vendors end up selling may be very different. So you can't even trust a well reviewed brand completely.
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Old 11-29-2023, 01:05 AM   #9
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I think I may have posted this before...



Maybe they will start giving them away soon.

Also makes you wonder if there are not at least some out there that recycle previously used cells inside of a nice new shiny case that is not easy to open.

The other issue is that the guys doing a tear-down video may get a (or a couple of) free batteries with really good quality cells and soldering etc, but then what the vendors end up selling may be very different. So you can't even trust a well reviewed brand completely.

The cost of lithium and some other materials has gone down, but not to the extreme of the finished batteries so there is bound to be some cost cutting in there we don't get to see. Maybe welded cells instead of bolted, smaller wires, cheaper BMS, who knows what else.


Most claim to have class A cells now also, but no way to prove in sealed cases. Reviewers have found used cells in cheaper batteries that I have seen and you can but them readily as individual cells. There appears to be no standardized rules about what can be class A rated so can't trust that at all.



At least the SOK batteries we got have removable tops that let me prebalance the cells and fix a couple of wiring error in them. The worked without doing that, but not nearly as well as afterwards. The cells were class A per numerous sources off the part numbers from a reputable cell manufacturer. The also tested at over rated capacity so probably were real class A.


With the race to the bottom of price, I fear quality and safety may be going that way also. I fear that sooner or later some bad things will happen and shake up the market heavily.
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Old 11-29-2023, 08:08 PM   #10
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I view that chart as a reflection of many "high-end" Chinese products and a reflection of their economic strategy. As I understand their situation;
1. They desperately need to keep all the people employed,
2. They are willing to fund whatever it takes to make #1 HAPPEN,
3. They are willing to sell products just to move inventory - not to make a profit
This was reflected in their appartment building boom, next their EV "boom," and perhaps now, the LiFePO4 market.

Yes, the appartment buildings were poorly built, but people were employed - even if the appartment building are empty and falling down. EVs are sitting in open air storage, as there are no buyers. Is the decline in pricing for Lithium batteries just another example of their "economic model?"

But what could be their motivation for such a scheme? If they didn't keep the population "busy" can you imagine what (devil's) work those idle hands could create?

Just a look from another (perhaps- twisted) perspective.

Cheers - Jim
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Old 11-29-2023, 09:08 PM   #11
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Old 12-03-2023, 05:37 PM   #12
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I worry about safety. There is a lot of energy density in these LiPO4 batteries. Not as much as the Li-Ion batteries that are giving airlines fits and burning down houses. But still plenty.

So when the time comes, Iíll buy from companies that have a long US in-country presence like Renogy, Battleborn, Victron, etc.
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Old 12-03-2023, 06:09 PM   #13
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I worry about safety. There is a lot of energy density in these LiPO4 batteries. Not as much as the Li-Ion batteries that are giving airlines fits and burning down houses. But still plenty.

So when the time comes, Iíll buy from companies that have a long US in-country presence like Renogy, Battleborn, Victron, etc.
"have a long US in-country presence"

Is there evidence that means something or just feels good?
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Old 12-03-2023, 06:16 PM   #14
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Regarding safety, here's three experiences with charging overdischarged lithium batteries I've directly been involved in. In one you could see that the batteries got hot enough to melt styrofoam but there was no fire, cells were not recoverable. With the second, no evidence of overheating and the batteries were successfully recovered by slow charging individual cells. The third almost almost burned down the house, batteries were ash. Guess which ones were LiFePO4 and which one was Lithium Polymer?
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Old 12-03-2023, 06:18 PM   #15
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Regarding safety, here's three experiences with charging overdischarged lithium batteries I've directly been involved in. In one you could see that the batteries got hot enough to melt styrofoam but there was no fire, cells were not recoverable. With the second, no evidence of overheating and the batteries were successfully recovered by slow charging individual cells. The third almost almost burned down the house, batteries were ash. Guess which ones were LiFePO4 and which one was Lithium Polymer?

How does one let that happen 3 times?
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Old 12-03-2023, 06:39 PM   #16
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Three totally different experiences I had to fix or deal with the aftermath. The first was in an RV I had sold after the new owner let it sit for the winter with no power, the second was a badly designed power tool and the fire was from an RC battery about 1/10 the capacity of the first experience.

Point is that in my experience, even when badly designed/abused, the LiFePO4 chemistry did not get hot enough to start a fire. Can't say that about other lithium ion chemistry's.
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Old 12-03-2023, 06:55 PM   #17
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LiTime seems to have a good reputation and many YouTube reviews say so.
I wouldn't be afraid to buy one of theirs from their website, on sale and give it a try.
Have to be a model with both high and low temp sensors though....
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Old 12-03-2023, 07:10 PM   #18
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"have a long US in-country presence"

Is there evidence that means something or just feels good?
Yes, absolutely.
First, when you call an English-speaking person answers the US phone number.
There is a website (besides Amazon) that has technical and application information.

10 year warranty vs. who knows?

Look up the warranty info for Newtipower. Any luck?
Or my favorite brand NoJoke. Good luck with that.
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Old 12-03-2023, 07:38 PM   #19
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Three totally different experiences I had to fix or deal with the aftermath. The first was in an RV I had sold after the new owner let it sit for the winter with no power, the second was a badly designed power tool and the fire was from an RC battery about 1/10 the capacity of the first experience.

Point is that in my experience, even when badly designed/abused, the LiFePO4 chemistry did not get hot enough to start a fire. Can't say that about other lithium ion chemistry's.

All three of these point out what everyone should believe about lithium systems, regardless of chemistry.


They should have high and low voltage cutouts.



They should have high and low temp cutoff for charging and discharging.


The should over current cutouts for charging and discharging.


Any major brand of power tool should have that built in, if not stay away.


Any charger for an RV battery should have it built in also, or the battery should.


The RV is even worse, IMO, because somebody didn't be sure of the safety controls. RVs have much more current available both from the batteries and the charging systems so can generate much more heat that can easily start a fire regardless of whether the battery itself combusts or not.


I fear there are many DIY drop in lithium systems, and probably many from scratch systems, that are at risk from the above type issues.
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Old 12-03-2023, 07:45 PM   #20
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All three of these point out what everyone should believe about lithium systems, regardless of chemistry.


They should have high and low voltage cutouts.



They should have high and low temp cutoff for charging and discharging.


The should over current cutouts for charging and discharging.


Any major brand of power tool should have that built in, if not stay away.


Any charger for an RV battery should have it built in also, or the battery should.


The RV is even worse, IMO, because somebody didn't be sure of the safety controls. RVs have much more current available both from the batteries and the charging systems so can generate much more heat that can easily start a fire regardless of whether the battery itself combusts or not.


I fear there are many DIY drop in lithium systems, and probably many from scratch systems, that are at risk from the above type issues.
Is it happening?
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