Roadtrek Ecotrek and Voltstart

[gerrym51]

if they only need to get power to the control panels and get the -buss connections or whatever to connect-why does it matter if it's 12 volt or 24 votl.

the controls operate 12 volt

[booster]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

if they only need to get power to the control panels and get the -buss connections or whatever to connect-why does it matter if it's 12 volt or 24 votl.

the controls operate 12 volt

My guess would be that with 12v you could get the lithium to turn back on (maybe), but if they are totally dead, it won't do any good, so you would still need a 24v source to get the engine generator and/or shore charger to initiate.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

if they only need to get power to the control panels and get the -buss connections or whatever to connect-why does it matter if it's 12 volt or 24 votl.

the controls operate 12 volt

The control switches for an individual Ecotrek module will always control 12v power even if the overall bank provides 24v power. That power likely comes from the power/charge connection on the battery being controlled which is at 12v but I suppose it could be wired differently to get 12v someplace else. To provide the reference voltage for the two chargers you need a 24v source which could come from a 24v AGM setup when the Ecotreks have gone offline. 12v loads are handled either by a tap on the bank or by a 24v to 12v converter, neither of which they got working on the infamous Andrew C van.

Interesting question, what happens as the individual Ecotreks start going offline as the 24v battery bank discharges. I guess it just shuts down one of the series of batteries providing 24v and eventually one in each series will have shut down and no power is available. Must be half of the battery modules shut down and the other half still connected to no load...

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Davydd

BTW, like Voltstart, Advanced RV autogen will come on for 5 times. After 5 you have to physically insert your key and start the engine. Then you have 5 more auto starts. I'm thinking that might be a Mercedes Benz thing. When I do auto start I have it programmed to run 110 minutes or when fully charged. I tested that too. I set my autogen to come on at 90% SOC and when it reached full charge it shut off. That was somewhere around 20 minutes.

The few supposed photos of the ecotrek lithium ion batteries I've seen I did not see anything remotely like a computer chip sensor on the individual cells. So I am not sure how they are controlling all those functions.

I'm describing this stuff from my electrical knowledge dyslexia. I don't pretend to know how it really functions. I'm just trying to describe what was said to me in laymen's terms and what I have tested to verify.

I have also guessed that the limit on restarts is likely part of the chassis system and not related to Voltstart.

The EcoTrek 200 module is a sealed box with all the cells, battery management, battery heating, etc. inside the box. The bank is made up of multiples of these sealed boxes connected like normal batteries. There does not seem to be any overall control or data monitoring of the whole bank. In fact, on some early vans there was a touch screen panel for data display so there may be a way to connect the boxes to external devices besides the two switches but that doesn't seem to be implemented currently.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

I have also guessed that the limit on restarts is likely part of the chassis system and not related to Voltstart.

I assume that both ARV and RT are installing the "SmartKey" remote start system from Midcity Engineering. This is the only remote start system that I am aware of that works with 2014+ Sprinters. If so, the "five restarts" thing is almost certainly enforced by that device.

[gregmchugh]

Someone recently mentioned on one of the Facebook groups that they had contacted Mid City to see if the run length limits and the number of restarts could be modified and they said they could. You would think that Roadtrek or ARV could get these set up to their spec from Mid City.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Someone recently mentioned on one of the Facebook groups that they had contacted Mid City to see if the run length limits and the number of restarts could be modified and they said they could. You would think that Roadtrek or ARV could get these set up to their spec from Mid City.

I'm sure they could. But, I think the five restarts thing is probably prudent. If nothing else, it eliminates the possibility of coming back from a 2 week vacation to discover that the Sprinter you left in your driveway is out of fuel.

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by avanti

I'm sure they could. But, I think the five restarts thing is probably prudent. If nothing else, it eliminates the possibility of coming back from a 2 week vacation to discover that the Sprinter you left in your driveway is out of fuel.

The amount of time that you can leave your pet alone in an air conditioned van and whether you can sleep all night without resetting the system will be limited with 5 restarts if you have the smaller battery banks. Roadtrek has always been leary of directly answering the question about how long will my batteries run the air conditioning and seem to give the pat answer to not worry if you get the Volstsart option.

We shall see how it all works out...

[Davydd]

Advanced RV is not using Mid City Smartkey. My fob is a Compustar fob that works in conjunction with Drone Mobile for security, remote starting and GPS location. Remote start works with what Mercedes Benz sets up with its computer monitoring function. M-B has a remote start function as well. I would have to think that is where the 5 start limit comes from because as I said, simply starting your van normally with the key resets everything. That to me is a M-B function. Also, Autogen is all programmed through Silverleaf. I can turn it off and on, set any number of minutes to run, at what SOC charge for it to come on and lock it out for quiet time. It doesn't sound as if Roadtrek has any of that capability. At least they didn't mention it in their video.

I found last week that you can mess up your security alarm if you get out of sequence with the locking function of your standard M-B fob. I accidentally did that last week and set off an alarm when I opened a door and my wife got a notification on her iPhone 800 miles away through the Drone Mobile app when the alarm went off.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

The amount of time that you can leave your pet alone in an air conditioned van and whether you can sleep all night without resetting the system will be limited with 5 restarts if you have the smaller battery banks. Roadtrek has always been leary of directly answering the question about how long will my batteries run the air conditioning and seem to give the pat answer to not worry if you get the Volstsart option.

We shall see how it all works out...

All least they learned their lesson the AC claims. We all remember the original claims of running the AC all night and recharge in 20 minutes routine. That was the time period when Hammil starting calling any of us who questioned the specs "armchair engineers". who were to stupid to understand how smart they were at Roadtrek. Some things haven't changed.

[mikes47]

Originally Posted by Davydd

I found last week that you can mess up your security alarm if you get out of sequence with the locking function of your standard M-B fob. I accidentally did that last week and set off an alarm when I opened a door and my wife got a notification on her iPhone 800 miles away through the Drone Mobile app when the alarm went off.

You aren't the only one that has had that experience, David! Nancy (Myst) reported it happening to her. And I set it off Easter morning (early) in my son's driveway. Nancy put the Drone fob in a safe place and only uses the standard MB fob. On the other hand, I prefer to use the Drone fob exclusively. I am just very conscious of clicking the unlock feature before opening any doors from inside.

[Boxster1971]

Originally Posted by avanti

In fairness, Teslas have a conventional 12V automotive battery to power the electronics, despite the fact that they have enough Lithium to drive hundreds of miles. I'm sure that they thought it through, so I guess it must make some kind of sense.

My Prius also has a small 12V lead-acid automotive battery that is kept charged by the traction battery via a DC-DC converter. The DC-DC converter is smaller than a deck of playing cards. I suspect all hybrid and EVs have this sort of setup. It is simple and effective.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Advanced RV is not using Mid City Smartkey. My fob is a Compustar fob that works in conjunction with Drone Mobile for security, remote starting and GPS location.

Are you sure that the Midcity product is not involved? I am not 100% certain, but I looked pretty carefully at this issue when I installed my alarm and could find no evidence that there was any other option for 2014+ Sprinters. The following claim appears on the Midcity website:

Besides being the only remote start option available for Mercedes-Benz Sprinter vans, the SKS906 features plug and play compatibility with Compustar® and Directed Electronics® alarm systems.

This could, of course, be nonsense, but I could find no evidence to contradict it.

Are you absolutely certain that the SKS906 isn't buried somewhere behind your dash? This isn't precluded by the presence of the Compustar fob. Also, all these devices interact with the OEM security features via the CAN bus, so this wouldn't contradict your "works with the Mercedes systems" statement.

Not being argumentative--I just would like to understand the alternative to the Midcity product if one exists.

[Davydd]

I can't say for certain but all the instructions revolve around Compustar and they claim a remote start system. The Autogen is also tied into the Silverleaf program with all those programmable control functions I mentioned. I doubt that is something one is going to buy off the shelf because it all has to be partnered with Silverleaf.

Advanced RV doesn't claim proprietary like Roadtrek. I have been there when Frank Kolasinski, their main tech guy, has explained functions in detail to non ARV owners and potential customers. They have also been very open about what they do at their Advanced Fest each year. One could ask them I guess. I just want the stuff to work without cluttering my brain too much.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by mikes47

You aren't the only one that has had that experience, David! Nancy (Myst) reported it happening to her. And I set it off Easter morning (early) in my son's driveway. Nancy put the Drone fob in a safe place and only uses the standard MB fob. On the other hand, I prefer to use the Drone fob exclusively. I am just very conscious of clicking the unlock feature before opening any doors from inside.

I prefer the Compustar fob as well. It gives you a lot of function and security. I did find out from the Mercedes Benz dealer that if you don't want the conflict you can simply remove the button battery in your Mercedes Benz key fob. I didn't follow up on the advice. In my case I had the Mercedes Benz key fob in my front jeans pocket and probably accidentally locked the doors with it while bending down. I thought I had my routine and habits down enough to know not to use the M-B fob other than the key. It's a heck of an alarm. It gets your attention.

[BobB]

Forum members FYI

A new member just posted on the Intro thread. They just bought a 2016 Zion and "I have been following the thread on the EcoTrek and the Volstart problem. It took the dealer 6 weeks to get ours fixed before we took delivery. But it is working fine now!"

They may have more info, that may be useful to others, on how RT is fixing the problem.

[gregmchugh]

Since it appears they have a reasonable fix for the issues with an added AGM battery and there are likely some other advantages to having it in place this point, I think the way to handle it now is simply use the tried and true approach of declaring a bug or fix as a new feature that they are including without increasing the price. Mention some benefits of the added battery and proceed on. Simply ignore the fact that it is needed to make their original design work. Mention that it is a common practice in high end electric vehicles if you want to embellish it a little. Customers really only care if it works, not how you made it work. I think it would be appropriate to have the warranty on the added AGM match the 6 year warranty of the lithiums. The armchair engineers will continue to poo poo the system as inelegant and the customers will be happy. Start working on version 2.0 with what they learned from this.

[booster]

Originally Posted by gregmchugh

Since it appears they have a reasonable fix for the issues with an added AGM battery and there are likely some other advantages to having it in place this point, I think the way to handle it now is simply use the tried and true approach of declaring a bug or fix as a new feature that they are including without increasing the price. Mention some benefits of the added battery and proceed on. Simply ignore the fact that it is needed to make their original design work. Mention that it is a common practice in high end electric vehicles if you want to embellish it a little. Customers really only care if it works, not how you made it work. I think it would be appropriate to have the warranty on the added AGM match the 6 year warranty of the lithiums. The armchair engineers will continue to poo poo the system as inelegant and the customers will be happy. Start working on version 2.0 with what they learned from this.

That may well be the case and, hopefully, it will get them through the near term so the products can actually get to the customers in working condition. Now they will be moving into the next phase of usability and capability, with reliability down the road, so to speak. We know from the etrek stuff, that is still going on, that it can quite some time for things to settle out. For the customer's sake, I hope it goes a whole lot better than the initial release and repair has, so they can enjoy their Roadtreks.

[Davydd]

It sounds like a fix. I don't know if I would modify it with "reasonable."

[gregmchugh]

Originally Posted by Davydd

It sounds like a fix. I don't know if I would modify it with "reasonable."

Reasonable seems reasonable to me, surely not elegant or even clever...

Reasonable | Definition of reasonable by Merriam-Webster