Free 7 Day Trial RV GPS App RV Trip Planner Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Free 7 Day Trial ×
 
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 08-03-2017, 08:26 PM   #481
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Ontario
Posts: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by booster View Post
Could it be the solar holding the module full by covering the parasitic, even when the main disconnect is off?

The AGM won't hold that high of a voltage for long as it would be all surface charge. It will drop to about 12.8v very quickly.
What I'm thinking is AGM could be providing power to the BMS instead of Lithium, therefore Lithium voltage stays intact. When Ecotrek is connected to the load side, it has no choice but to power itself including BMS.
__________________

vsandlk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 08:29 PM   #482
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: CA
Posts: 1,649
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vsandlk View Post
Refrigerator selector switch was at 0 setting, I checked.
Is the inverter on?
__________________

cruising7388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 08:31 PM   #483
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 9,692
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vsandlk View Post
What I'm thinking is AGM could be providing power to the BMS instead of Lithium, therefore Lithium voltage stays intact. When Ecotrek is connected to the load side, it has no choice but to power itself including BMS.
Hard to tell, I think. We have all assumed that the parasitic from the modules when turned on was from the connecting relays, so whenever it was on active they would be connected to as far as the coach power switch. How new is your unit?
booster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 08:32 PM   #484
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Ontario
Posts: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruising7388 View Post
Is the inverter on?
No inverter was off as well. When battery disconnect is OFF, this all doesn't matter since no power connected to the load side.
When I initially turn Ecotrek module on, it's disconnected from the load side by default. I have to press "Reset" button for it go online. In both cases I hear relays clicking but with different sounds.
vsandlk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 08:34 PM   #485
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Ontario
Posts: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by booster View Post
Hard to tell, I think. We have all assumed that the parasitic from the modules when turned on was from the connecting relays, so whenever it was on active they would be connected to as far as the coach power switch. How new is your unit?
The unit is only couple weeks old.
vsandlk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 08:37 PM   #486
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Ontario
Posts: 12
Default

The other thing I noticed is when Ecotrek is on but disconnected from the coach, the solar charging is very fast as it does not have to go against parasitic load. Also, I noticed that voltage showing up in this case is 14.10 volts or even higher, while when Ecotrek is connected to the load side, it rarely goes above 13.5.
vsandlk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 08:44 PM   #487
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: CA
Posts: 1,649
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davydd View Post
It's not so simple. The optional second alternator MB brackets used for the Nations don't work for the Delco-Remy alternator. Advanced RV had to design and manufacture a costume bracket and pulley system among other things to accommodate the Delco.
I don't think ARV is motivated to just sell Delco alternators equipped with their custom torque converter. Without that feature, a basic Delco would be considerably noisier and I wonder if it could impact engine main bearings. Beyond that, for an aftermarket installation, the bottom line cost of materials and labor could cost upwards of $3,000 which begs entertaining whether it's worth the return on the investment if you're not insistent on running an AC off grid all night.
cruising7388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 08:44 PM   #488
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Ontario
Posts: 12
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vsandlk View Post
What I'm thinking is AGM could be providing power to the BMS instead of Lithium, therefore Lithium voltage stays intact. When Ecotrek is connected to the load side, it has no choice but to power itself including BMS.
There must be something here as the whole purpose of AGM I believe is to provide power to BMS and wake up a dead Lithium module should it go offline due to low voltage, etc.
vsandlk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 08:49 PM   #489
New Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Ontario
Posts: 12
Default

Speaking about alternators, I noticed that on my Agile the second alternator is located very low, just behind the front bumper. On Zions built on Promaster chassis the location is even lower. It probably has to do with cooling. At the same time it's exposed to the elements or debris which is not good I believe. I already hit a crow on my first trip but the alternator held well
vsandlk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 10:07 PM   #490
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: WA
Posts: 202
Default

Sorry I haven't posted more today, it's just that I was busy driving my new RoadTrek Adventurous

Third Balmar fixed the issue and they showed me before I signed the paperwork, gave me a check for my lodging costs, and I split. I'm very happy in the end.

GU is charging them up driving too, so I'm at a campground on a lake now doing some testing after a couple hours of driving.

I'll be particularly interested in testing out the air conditioning because I suspect it's not working properly at high temp but jury is still out. Then testing out the dumping stuff. Then the Alde which I hear has many issues for many folks. Fingers crossed I'm not one of them.

Good to be an official Class B guy Thanks to all you old heads for the help along the way. Much appreciated!
WingedRyno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 10:27 PM   #491
Platinum Member
 
Boxster1971's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Maryland
Posts: 1,063
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedRyno View Post
Sorry I haven't posted more today, it's just that I was busy driving my new RoadTrek Adventurous

Third Balmar fixed the issue and they showed me before I signed the paperwork, gave me a check for my lodging costs, and I split. I'm very happy in the end.

GU is charging them up driving too, so I'm at a campground on a lake now doing some testing after a couple hours of driving.

I'll be particularly interested in testing out the air conditioning because I suspect it's not working properly at high temp but jury is still out. Then testing out the dumping stuff. Then the Alde which I hear has many issues for many folks. Fingers crossed I'm not one of them.

Good to be an official Class B guy Thanks to all you old heads for the help along the way. Much appreciated!
Congratulations!!

I thought the title "Warp Core" was a joke until I searched and found out that is what Roadtrek calls the big battery setup is their brochure.

Warp Core Package EcoTrek 1600 & 600W solar
http://www.roadtrek.com/wp-content/u...re-08-2016.pdf

Happy travels.
__________________
2013 Airstream Interstate Lounge EXT on 2012 Sprinter 3500 170Ext
Formerly: 1973 Dodge B300 DIY pop-top conversion
Boxster1971 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 10:27 PM   #492
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 9,692
Default

Excellent news, congratulations!
booster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 10:56 PM   #493
Platinum Member
 
Davydd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,234
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruising7388 View Post
I don't think ARV is motivated to just sell Delco alternators equipped with their custom torque converter. Without that feature, a basic Delco would be considerably noisier and I wonder if it could impact engine main bearings. Beyond that, for an aftermarket installation, the bottom line cost of materials and labor could cost upwards of $3,000 which begs entertaining whether it's worth the return on the investment if you're not insistent on running an AC off grid all night.
The MB optional second alternator bracket itself will not work for the Delco. They did custom develop their torque converter too as you say which only means you could not simply swap out a Nations with a Delco without a lot of knowledge and know how as assumed by BBQ.

There are more reasons for a second alternator than just air conditioning. My understanding is a single alternator allows only 60 amps of charging for functions other than the chassis. That is not much for my 800ah battery bank. The Nations when throttled down for heat at about the mentioned 150 amps proved to create a death spiral of not keeping up with all the other electrical demands along with air conditioning. My Delco steadily charges at 220ah plus when idling. The Nations inadequacy was proven by Advanced RV customers in constant 90 degree plus temperatures mainly in the southwest. For me it was not critical. This and I don't think Advanced RV's system that there is the parasitic loss of battery amp hours as the Roadtrek's.

I don't even understand having a warp core 1600ah system if there are 8 modules you have to control and monitor separately especially without the suspenders of Voltstart. And I thought Voltstart was a standard not an option. I don't believe it can answer air conditioning needs in any practical manner. With my experience I've determined a 400ah lithium battery bank with some attendance can make me independent of shore power without air conditioning in the equation. My 800ah battery bank makes it a no-brainer worry.

Weight, space and charging considerations take effect in battery systems greater than 400ah and lithium is the practical way to go.

The second alternator makes economic sense when you can eliminate a more costly and maintenance headache of an Onan generator and its necessary attendant propane system in Sprinters.

Advanced RV may have moved past first Nations and maybe the Delco with the 48V Volta adaption. I hope to know more soon.

BTW, an aside, you know Mike Wendland traded in his beta Roadtrek after 2.5 years for a standard 800ah lithium battery system, their standard 470w solar array and conventional roof top air conditioner. He didn't opt for Warp Core. I guess his experiment is over. Campskunk had the other one.
__________________
Davydd
2021 Advanced RV 144 custom Sprinter
2015 Advanced RV Extended body Sprinter
2011 Great West Van Legend Sprinter
2005 Pleasure-way Plateau TS Sprinter
Davydd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 11:01 PM   #494
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: CA
Posts: 1,649
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by vsandlk View Post
The other thing I noticed is when Ecotrek is on but disconnected from the coach, the solar charging is very fast as it does not have to go against parasitic load. Also, I noticed that voltage showing up in this case is 14.10 volts or even higher, while when Ecotrek is connected to the load side, it rarely goes above 13.5.
Your observation is correct but I don't think it's for the reason that you suggest. If the battery is on,(blue light) it is experiencing the parasitic BMS loss and this will be the case whether or not the battery disconnect switch is on or off. But when your disconnect switch is on, because of the unexplained additional load drain you are experiencing, the solar panel has to support that in addition to addressing the BMS parasitic loss. Between the battery parasitic and the mysterious coach load, it probably can't meet the total discarge level which accounts for battery depletion.

The lithium parasitic load is a fact of life for which there is no practical remedy other than shutting the battery itself off but this will shut down an operating fridge. So, the next step is identifying this mysterious load downstream of the main battery switch. It isn't the switch itself because unlike the lithium relays, the main disconnect relay is a bi-stable design and is powered only momentarily when this switch is toggled on and off. Whatever this load is, it most likely being delivered through a fused circuit. What I would do is to determine which 12V fused circuit is pulling current. A nifty tool for that is a fuse with an ammeter that will display any current draw when inserted into a fuse receptacle. Harbor Freight sells them. BTW, if you do roll by a Harbor Freight, and you don't have one, buy one of their digital meters. The cost is chump change compared to the invaluable assistance it provides in electrical troubleshooting.
cruising7388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 11:22 PM   #495
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: CA
Posts: 1,649
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davydd View Post
The MB optional second alternator bracket itself will not work for the Delco. They did custom develop their torque converter too as you say which only means you could not simply swap out a Nations with a Delco without a lot of knowledge and know how as assumed by BBQ.

There are more reasons for a second alternator than just air conditioning. My understanding is a single alternator allows only 60 amps of charging for functions other than the chassis. That is not much for my 800ah battery bank. The Nations when throttled down for heat at about the mentioned 150 amps proved to create a death spiral of not keeping up with all the other electrical demands along with air conditioning. My Delco steadily charges at 220ah plus when idling. The Nations inadequacy was proven by Advanced RV customers in constant 90 degree plus temperatures mainly in the southwest. For me it was not critical. This and I don't think Advanced RV's system that there is the parasitic loss of battery amp hours as the Roadtrek's.

I don't even understand having a warp core 1600ah system if there are 8 modules you have to control and monitor separately especially without the suspenders of Voltstart. And I thought Voltstart was a standard not an option. I don't believe it can answer air conditioning needs in any practical manner. With my experience I've determined a 400ah lithium battery bank with some attendance can make me independent of shore power without air conditioning in the equation. My 800ah battery bank makes it a no-brainer worry.

Weight, space and charging considerations take effect in battery systems greater than 400ah and lithium is the practical way to go.

The second alternator makes economic sense when you can eliminate a more costly and maintenance headache of an Onan generator and its necessary attendant propane system in Sprinters.

Advanced RV may have moved past first Nations and maybe the Delco with the 48V Volta adaption. I hope to know more soon.

BTW, an aside, you know Mike Wendland traded in his beta Roadtrek after 2.5 years for a standard 800ah lithium battery system, their standard 470w solar array and conventional roof top air conditioner. He didn't opt for Warp Core. I guess his experiment is over. Campskunk had the other one.
As usual, you do an excellent job of peeling the onion. Thanks!

ARV will provide 1600ah if the customer demands it but ;they don't recommend it. I think they have only built one unit this way.

The Volta system could produce a whole new playing field. If you think about it, there's something bizarre about living with the constraints that low DC voltage delivery creates. As far back as WWII the jeeps were already running at 24 volts. It took a couple of subsequent decades for the industry to move from 6V to 12V. I imagine the frame size requirements for the Volta are appreciably smaller than the Delco.

If you upgrade to a new coach, would you consider including the leveling system that ARV can provide on the Sprinter? I had a small Class A with HWH levelers that I loved. Until now, Mercedes wouldn't authorize levelers of any kind even when HWH offered levels requiring no chassis drilling. When boondocking, those levelers gave me a myriad of choices in where to set down for the night that would be unusable in our 210.
cruising7388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 11:36 PM   #496
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: CA
Posts: 1,649
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by booster View Post
It is highly unlikely you got two bad regulators.
Umm..er..... uh.... sir, what is it you don't understand about black swans?

Both Nations and Balmar are good companies and I think they will get to the bottom of this in short order. Hopefully, it won't involve an entire production run.
cruising7388 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-03-2017, 11:54 PM   #497
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 9,692
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruising7388 View Post
Umm..er..... uh.... sir, what is it you don't understand about black swans?

Both Nations and Balmar are good companies and I think they will get to the bottom of this in short order. Hopefully, it won't involve an entire production run.
I do still think it is highly unlikely. Of course anything can and does happen sometimes. I think it is also just as likely, or more, there was something else that was wrong, either wiring or how set that contributed, but we will never here about that if it was.
booster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2017, 12:59 AM   #498
BBQ
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: East
Posts: 2,484
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedRyno View Post
Sorry I haven't posted more today, it's just that I was busy driving my new RoadTrek Adventurous

Third Balmar fixed the issue and they showed me before I signed the paperwork, gave me a check for my lodging costs, and I split. I'm very happy in the end.

GU is charging them up driving too, so I'm at a campground on a lake now doing some testing after a couple hours of driving.

I'll be particularly interested in testing out the air conditioning because I suspect it's not working properly at high temp but jury is still out. Then testing out the dumping stuff. Then the Alde which I hear has many issues for many folks. Fingers crossed I'm not one of them.

Good to be an official Class B guy Thanks to all you old heads for the help along the way. Much appreciated!

Congratulations.

Have fun.
__________________
BBQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2017, 01:37 AM   #499
Platinum Member
 
Davydd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,234
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by cruising7388 View Post
As usual, you do an excellent job of peeling the onion. Thanks!

ARV will provide 1600ah if the customer demands it but ;they don't recommend it. I think they have only built one unit this way.

The Volta system could produce a whole new playing field. If you think about it, there's something bizarre about living with the constraints that low DC voltage delivery creates. As far back as WWII the jeeps were already running at 24 volts. It took a couple of subsequent decades for the industry to move from 6V to 12V. I imagine the frame size requirements for the Volta are appreciably smaller than the Delco.

If you upgrade to a new coach, would you consider including the leveling system that ARV can provide on the Sprinter? I had a small Class A with HWH levelers that I loved. Until now, Mercedes wouldn't authorize levelers of any kind even when HWH offered levels requiring no chassis drilling. When boondocking, those levelers gave me a myriad of choices in where to set down for the night that would be unusable in our 210.
I believe ARV installed 1200ah battery systems but not 1600ah. One installation was because of medical needs of the customer.

I'm on the fence about levelers. I need to level about 1 in 10 times so don't feel I need them for that task. The VB Air Suspension takes out a lot of leveling needs where maybe one lego block would do. However, my wife is deathly afraid of parking on a sand beach. Up and down the Gulf Coast of Texas I couldn't convince her. So, a 4 x 4 with the added levelers to get out of a hole might persuade her. I hope to never need it as James for TheFitRV intimated for changing a tire.
__________________
Davydd
2021 Advanced RV 144 custom Sprinter
2015 Advanced RV Extended body Sprinter
2011 Great West Van Legend Sprinter
2005 Pleasure-way Plateau TS Sprinter
Davydd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-04-2017, 07:27 AM   #500
Platinum Member
 
GeorgeRa's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2016
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 2,393
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WingedRyno View Post
Then the Alde which I hear has many issues for many folks. Fingers crossed I'm not one of them.
Congratulation and have fun. Is your Alde diesel or LPG power?
__________________

GeorgeRa is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:34 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×