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Old 08-08-2013, 03:59 PM   #101
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

The Sportsmobile Promaster Van pricesheet - PDF file download: http://www.sportsmobile.com/sections...oMasterSYV.pdf - lists the Promaster Turbo Diesel engine option price as $3,560.
Compare that to the $11,279 add-on to get a diesel in Sportsmobile's Chevy price sheet and it looks like a bargain.

The challenge is going to be keeping a large enough price difference between the Class B ProMaster and Sprinter vans to make it an easy decision to buy one on the ProMaster chassis. If the final prices are close then I think people will choose the Sprinter.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:09 PM   #102
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

Unless the Promaster warranty/service/repair costs are seen as being significantly lower downstream, than the service costs of the comparable Sprinter, maybe?
I would agree that many people would probably choose the Sprinter if the prices were close.

Just to clarify my preference change to the diesel option, if priced well, and available on the Promaster chassis when used in a class B, I based my position in my previous post in this thread largely on personal experience and many miles driven over the last 5 years.
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Old 08-08-2013, 04:24 PM   #103
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

I think ProMaster service/warranty/repair costs will be lower than the Sprinter. I've read that from Europe, but don't have any useful links to show this. There is also the fact that if a Dodge dealer sells RAM pickups, it will sell ProMasters... and service them. This in itself makes finding service a lot easier than trying to find a M-B or FL dealer that will even bother with Sprinters (Austin is lucky; both places will service them, but most M-B places don't have the tall bays for them, and FL dealers only handle the big rigs.)

With economies of scale, this will make servicing the Dodge vans cheaper.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:06 AM   #104
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

That's Ford. So V6 for Travato. Is it turbo? But again, will it get you across a 11,000 foot plus elevation Rocky Mountain pass? I saw V8 and V10 Bs struggle. I saw the same on I-70 in Colorado. The Turbo has no problem.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:13 AM   #105
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlts22
I think ProMaster service/warranty/repair costs will be lower than the Sprinter. I've read that from Europe, but don't have any useful links to show this. There is also the fact that if a Dodge dealer sells RAM pickups, it will sell ProMasters... and service them. This in itself makes finding service a lot easier than trying to find a M-B or FL dealer that will even bother with Sprinters (Austin is lucky; both places will service them, but most M-B places don't have the tall bays for them, and FL dealers only handle the big rigs.)

With economies of scale, this will make servicing the Dodge vans cheaper.
Generally if the dealer is selling Sprinters it is servicing them. You might be making a leap that all Ram dealers will service the Travato. Not all Dodge dealers in the past serviced the Sprinter. I had several Dodge dealers close by, as close as two mile away, but had to travel 40 miles to get my 2004 Sprinter serviced at a Dodge dealer.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:43 AM   #106
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davydd
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlts22
I think ProMaster service/warranty/repair costs will be lower than the Sprinter. I've read that from Europe, but don't have any useful links to show this. There is also the fact that if a Dodge dealer sells RAM pickups, it will sell ProMasters... and service them. This in itself makes finding service a lot easier than trying to find a M-B or FL dealer that will even bother with Sprinters (Austin is lucky; both places will service them, but most M-B places don't have the tall bays for them, and FL dealers only handle the big rigs.)

With economies of scale, this will make servicing the Dodge vans cheaper.
Generally if the dealer is selling Sprinters it is servicing them. You might be making a leap that all Ram dealers will service the Travato. Not all Dodge dealers in the past serviced the Sprinter. I had several Dodge dealers close by, as close as two mile away, but had to travel 40 miles to get my 2004 Sprinter serviced at a Dodge dealer.

Davydd-you are funny and loyal-i have to give you that. Of course there will be more dealers to service the promaster than the sprinter
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:54 AM   #107
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

Here is something that was in a post on another board some time ago in a discussion of Sprinter, old 6.0 and new 6.0 Chevy.

" The old I5 Sprinter diesel had max torque of 243 foot pounds at 1600 rpm, and is considered a torque monster. All of these gas engines match, or beat that number at 1600 rpm. I was very surprised at that. The new V6 Sprinter engine is rated 280 foot pounds at 1200 rpm (really low), and the old 6.0 matches that. Looking at this, I would have to give the gas engines (6.0) a large pulling power advantage, as they match the diesels on the bottom, and beat them handily as rpm increases. As I said, this was a large surprise to me, as I though the diesels would be way better than gas below 2000 rpm."

Here is a torque curve on the earlier 6.0 before the VVT version.



Diesel Engine is optional. 3.0L Turbo, 174 HP at 3,600 RPM. Torque 295 lb/ft at 1,400 RPM. Torque 295 lb/ft at 1,420 RPM. From another Ducato thread here.

As you can see, the 6.0 gas has MORE torque at 1400 rpm (the torque peak for the diesel) than the diesel. There is no rpm that the diesel will have more torque than the 6.0 gasser, except possibly at very high altitudes, or someplace under 1400rpm.

The diesel "torque monster" reputation must come for the over the road engines that can easily have 1200 ft-lbs of torque. The specs certainly don't show the van diesels to have lots more, or even equal a lot of times, torque than the gassers that are used, even at the same low rpm areas.
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Old 08-09-2013, 03:20 AM   #108
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

Quote:
Originally Posted by gerrym51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davydd
Quote:
Originally Posted by mlts22
I think ProMaster service/warranty/repair costs will be lower than the Sprinter. I've read that from Europe, but don't have any useful links to show this. There is also the fact that if a Dodge dealer sells RAM pickups, it will sell ProMasters... and service them. This in itself makes finding service a lot easier than trying to find a M-B or FL dealer that will even bother with Sprinters (Austin is lucky; both places will service them, but most M-B places don't have the tall bays for them, and FL dealers only handle the big rigs.)

With economies of scale, this will make servicing the Dodge vans cheaper.
Generally if the dealer is selling Sprinters it is servicing them. You might be making a leap that all Ram dealers will service the Travato. Not all Dodge dealers in the past serviced the Sprinter. I had several Dodge dealers close by, as close as two mile away, but had to travel 40 miles to get my 2004 Sprinter serviced at a Dodge dealer.

Davydd-you are funny and loyal-i have to give you that. Of course there will be more dealers to service the promaster than the sprinter
Yep, and they will probably have to.
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Old 08-09-2013, 03:52 AM   #109
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

Davydd has one important point -- the Pentastar engine (which has not been used for anything other than relatively lightweight Jeeps off-road) is a normally aspirated engine. This means that it will lose HP when going in the mountains, while the Ford EcoBoost V-6 and all the turbo diesel models will do just fine.

The EB V-6 is an interesting engine. It has torque curves similar to a diesel, and the MPG is decent, although I'm sure the numbers plummet when the turbos kick in. I personally think turbocharged gasser engines are the future of engines because it helps in higher elevations, and with common-rail EFI, gas engines are as economical as they are going to get for the most part.
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Old 08-09-2013, 06:23 AM   #110
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

Mike asked if California air standards were less strick than Europes. I believe we in The Peoples Republic are stricter otherwise we would have 60 mpg deisel Smart cars here as they have in Canada and Europe. They looked at the red tape and hoops and didn't even bother. We will see if they can get that diesel certified Cali smog legal.
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Old 08-09-2013, 12:09 PM   #111
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

Quote:
Originally Posted by booster
Here is something that was in a post on another board some time ago in a discussion of Sprinter, old 6.0 and new 6.0 Chevy.

" The old I5 Sprinter diesel had max torque of 243 foot pounds at 1600 rpm, and is considered a torque monster. All of these gas engines match, or beat that number at 1600 rpm. I was very surprised at that. The new V6 Sprinter engine is rated 280 foot pounds at 1200 rpm (really low), and the old 6.0 matches that. Looking at this, I would have to give the gas engines (6.0) a large pulling power advantage, as they match the diesels on the bottom, and beat them handily as rpm increases. As I said, this was a large surprise to me, as I though the diesels would be way better than gas below 2000 rpm."

Here is a torque curve on the earlier 6.0 before the VVT version.



Diesel Engine is optional. 3.0L Turbo, 174 HP at 3,600 RPM. Torque 295 lb/ft at 1,400 RPM. Torque 295 lb/ft at 1,420 RPM. From another Ducato thread here.

As you can see, the 6.0 gas has MORE torque at 1400 rpm (the torque peak for the diesel) than the diesel. There is no rpm that the diesel will have more torque than the 6.0 gasser, except possibly at very high altitudes, or someplace under 1400rpm.

The diesel "torque monster" reputation must come for the over the road engines that can easily have 1200 ft-lbs of torque. The specs certainly don't show the van diesels to have lots more, or even equal a lot of times, torque than the gassers that are used, even at the same low rpm areas.
If that is the engine in your 2007 C190P, then you do have slightly higher torque (300 ft/lb?) at around 1420 RPM, than the 295 ft/lb at 1420 number taken from the Ducato/Travato thread (I think those numbers came from the Sportsmobile engine options info Stan found?). If that chart is a true representation of that year/make/model engine's specs, then I wish more non-Sprinter based class B vans had that engine, as I suspect it is the exception, rather than the general rule. I wonder what the fuel consumption specs are compared to the RPMs along the curve for both engines? Or an overlay of the Sprinter I5 specs/V6 specs to compare the entire torque/HP curves for both engine types. Got a torque/HP curve diagram for the 2002 5.7L V8? On second thought, never mind, I'd rather not know.
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Old 08-09-2013, 01:57 PM   #112
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

The chart is for the 300hp/360tq 6.0 that GM used after the change from the 5.7. It is what is in our 07. In 08 or 09, I think, they went to the the variable valve timing model of the engine and it rates at 323/373? I think. It appears they used the higher performance parts for that engine as it actually lost low end performance compared to the earlier one.



You can see that they have the max rating marked on the curve while it is still rising, which means that they are rpm limiting it to either save the drivetrain, or keep it from overheating, either of which show a very poor choice of setup. Of course, this change happened as GM was carreening toward demise, and they had a whole lot of pickup truck engine parts around to use.

Mercedes is very tight with their information, although I did see an I% chart once a long time ago.

Apparently Ford is saying the Ecoboost 3.5 liter direct injection gas turbo engine will 90% of its 425 ft-lbs (yep 425) at 1700 rpm. I need to look to see if any of the truck magazines have done an on road towing test against their much larger diesel.
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Old 08-09-2013, 02:11 PM   #113
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

Here is a curve for a 6.7 liter Ford turbo diesel. If I want to move that van around decently, this is what I want. 735 ft-lbs from 1600 to 3000rpm and 500 at 1000rpm. From the shape of the curve, they could do much more, but the parts probably coudn,t take it.

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Old 08-09-2013, 05:09 PM   #114
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

That's the Ford Power Stroke engine/model? It looks like it would be a stump puller. Bet the fuel economy sucks on it, though. My cousin pulled a 30' fiver with one of those, and now has the Eco-boost V6 in his F-150 4X4. He noticed a difference.
Fuel economy will probably be added to the mix, before finally deciding on any engine/drive train choices, particularly since these class B vans are often loaded to the bump stops (see many threads on here to that effect?). Power to weight ratios matter, when you spend a lot of time climbing hills.
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:53 PM   #115
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

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That's the Ford Power Stroke engine/model? It looks like it would be a stump puller. Bet the fuel economy sucks on it, though. My cousin pulled a 30' fiver with one of those, and now has the Eco-boost V6 in his F-150 4X4. He noticed a difference.
Fuel economy will probably be added to the mix, before finally deciding on any engine/drive train choices, particularly since these class B vans are often loaded to the bump stops (see many threads on here to that effect?). Power to weight ratios matter, when you spend a lot of time climbing hills.
I bet he would notice the difference. 735 down to 425 torque is a lot, and both those numbers makes most of the B engines seem wimpy, both gas and diesel.
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:35 AM   #116
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

Again, and I'm not arguing about the 2007 6.0L LQ4 Vortec engine's specs as they do look a bit better than the current/recent Promaster/Ducato, or Sprinter, diesel specs.
Are there any current mass production build gas engine chassis combos that you know of, made by anyone whose engine and chassis is or might be used by a major class B RV conversion company, that has better overall torque specs coupled with reasonable fuel economy, than those specs that are established on the Sprinter, or the best estimates that Chrysler has published on the Ducato/Promaster diesel engine and chassis?
I suspect that the 2007 Chevy 6.0L gas engine is the exception, and not the rule.
That's why I think I would probably rather have a more recent diesel engine chassis combo, over any recent gas powered engine and chassis, based on where I would probably drive it the most, that being on hilly and mountainous terrain, where I would expect better hill climbing ability with better overall fuel economy.
I would prefer a Power Stroke Diesel over any other engine, but I don't think I could afford the fuel consumption while pulling stumps with it. But it would be fun to have that much torque. I could probably pull my house through the mountains with one.
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Old 08-10-2013, 02:09 AM   #117
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Again, and I'm not arguing about the 2007 6.0L LQ4 Vortec engine's specs as they do look a bit better than the current/recent Promaster/Ducato, or Sprinter, diesel specs.
Are there any current mass production build gas engine chassis combos that you know of, made by anyone whose engine and chassis is or might be used by a major class B RV conversion company, that has better overall torque specs coupled with reasonable fuel economy, than those specs that are established on the Sprinter, or the best estimates that Chrysler has published on the Ducato/Promaster diesel engine and chassis?
I suspect that the 2007 Chevy 6.0L gas engine is the exception, and not the rule.
That's why I think I would probably rather have a more recent diesel engine chassis combo, over any recent gas powered engine and chassis, based on where I would probably drive it the most, that being on hilly and mountainous terrain, where I would expect better hill climbing ability with better overall fuel economy.
I would prefer a Power Stroke Diesel over any other engine, but I don't think I could afford the fuel consumption while pulling stumps with it. But it would be fun to have that much torque. I could probably pull my house through the mountains with one.
The newer Chevies aren't as good as the older ones, which I think started in 2003, but still not bad, and with the new 6 speed transmission, they get mileage that approaches the last generation 3.0 Sprinter.

The Ford V10 is about the only other show right now, and may be going away in vans and cutaways. I can't say milage wise what they do, but they have very good power. They drag some huge motorhomes around, and lots of big pickups towing. Here is a link that shows a bunch of Ford engines, not sure of the years on this one.

If Ford puts the Ecoboost 3.5 in any of the vans, it will have 1/3 more torque than the Travato.

http://www.gearvendors.com/hrfordhptorque.html
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:25 PM   #118
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

Re: 2014 Ford Transit

Quote:
The 3.2 liter Power Stroke is one of several engines that will be available for Transit in North America, including the proven 3.5 liter EcoBoost® gasoline engine. All engines are mated to a Ford 6R80 six speed automatic transmission.
Is the Ecotec and the EcoBoost the same?

Re: Ram ProMaster

Quote:
EcoDiesel

The 2014 Ram ProMaster marks the North American introduction of the potent 174 horsepower 3.0 liter inline 4 cylinder EcoDiesel engine that generates peak torque of 295 lb. ft. at just 1,400 rpm. The engine features a number of refinements, including internal engine components, turbo and emission controls. Helping to reduced total cost of ownership, an oil level sensor contributes to an oil change
schedule of up to 18,500 miles.
Quote:
Pentastar

The standard equipment 3.6 liter Pentastar V6 is rated at 280 horsepower with peak torque of 260 lb.ft., the dual overhead cam, 24 valve Pentastar delivers the capability required of a commercial van without compromising refinement hallmarks that have contributed to its ranking among Ward’s 10 Best Engines for three years running. Reducing vehicle operating costs was paramount in the minds of the powertrain engineers who contributed to Ram ProMaster’s development. Recommended oil change intervals range up to 10,000 miles. But an intelligent oil servicing system that monitors vehicle usage will trigger an alert when service is most appropriate.
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Old 08-10-2013, 02:55 PM   #119
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"Is the Ecotec and the EcoBoost the same?

OOps, too many ECOs to deal with. Ecotec is a GM engine, probably named to compete with the Ford Ecoboost. The name showed up while I was looking at toque curves and somehow drained out my fingers
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Old 08-10-2013, 10:46 PM   #120
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Default Re: Winnebago Travato

Ford 3.2L Power Stroke diesel? Hmmmm, kind of a little brother stump puller, maybe?
That might work, if any converters decide to try the Transit as the chassis base.
I guess it's still wait and see who uses what, under what, when it comes to new conversions in 2014 and beyond.
Should be lots of fun, if they can find a way to get pricing under control. Otherwise, it's just more stuff I'll have to wait a minimum of 3 years to even think about buying, after it's been gently used......
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