European Ideas coming to the USA

[Dave in Nevada]

Hi, I just bought a Winnebago Roam and found there are a number of European travel van ideas that have been used in making this compact RV. So let me tell you about them. Furnace/hot water heater. This is one unit. It runs off the gasoline from the same tank as the engine so you do not have to mess around with a separate propane tank. The heater uses an antifreeze type fluid to distribute the heat around the RV. Sort of like the old steam radiators found in older houses. It also is an instant hot water heater so there is no tank taking up space, it heats the water as you need it. It is very compact and only heats when you need it....pretty clever. Cassette toilet. There is no black tank. It holds five gallons of waste. To dump it you go to the outside of the RV, open a door and pull the cassette out. As you pull it out it self seals. It has wheels and a handle like a suitcase and you just roll it to the dump site. Or to a toilet. Or to a sewer line access clean out pipe. Or to a septic tank. You fold out the solid drain pipe, unscrew the lid, turn it upside down and push the air vent and everything gets dumped. Then you spray it out, close it up and you are done. Take it back to the RV and just plug it back in. .... The single gray tank can be dumped per the standard RV hose or you can put it on an extended garden hose and drain it into a garden or into the grass. The fridge is a standard small 110 power fridge. No propane, no DC so it is simple and can be replaced CHEAP. It runs off the 110 30 amp shore line or if moving on 110 thru the inverter from the alternator of the vehicle. Rear AC. This is also a heater so if you are plugged into 110 power you can use it to provide heat to the unit in addition to the gas heater. Nice to have a backup. Again, these are on the Roam but I expect you will see them more and more on Class B units where space and weight are an issue. If you have any questions shoot them at me and I will see if I have the info.

[jrobe]

I wouldn't call any of these new advances in the RV world from Europe. I have no knowledge about the Elwell Timberline heaters that they are using in that model but the tried and true Espar heaters have been used by truckers and RV'ers in the US for many years. I suspect those Elwell heaters are just cheaper knockoffs but I am glad to see some competition which should lower prices for all of us.

I have also seen enough people wheeling their cassette tanks into campground and rest stop bathrooms to empty them into toilets to know that I would never buy a cassette toilet. That even seems disgusting and not respectful of other people using that bathroom. They must not have RV dump stations in Europe like we do in the US and probably instead have specific places to properly empty their cassette boxes. They primarily use cassette toilets in the US because it is easier and cheaper.

It also lists the Roam as having a typical 12 volts compressor refrigerator with 2 Group 31 AGM batteries. That is nothing new or different. They didn't even add a second alternator which is available for a Promaster to increase the charging capacity.

I wish they would start to bring some of the European design ideas to the US. I love some of their ideas to maximize living space.

[Urlauber]

Some of the floorplans are pretty cool, like the 17ft Wingamm, or even the older Axion / Ayers Rock etc. Westfalia Nugget with its L-shaped kitchen too.

Not sure about your other points... they are not really that new. A 110V fridge (if that is true) would be a big step back over the existing and proven 12V compressor models.

As for cassettes, this will always divide the masses. Many Americans have serious IFOP (intrinsic fear of poop) and prefer wrestling with stinky hoses rather than dumping in a "rest" room. I have done both and appreciate the many ways a cassette can be emptied. Most sites I frequent don't have dump stations so the problem comes home with you and I think the little suitcase is much easier to deal with.

Disgusting and not respectful? Dunno... as long as it all goes into the right place rather than all over the floor I don't quite follow. Must be the IFOP thing.

[MsNomer]

Originally Posted by jrobe

I have also seen enough people wheeling their cassette tanks into campground and rest stop bathrooms to empty them into toilets to know that I would never buy a cassette toilet. That even seems disgusting and not respectful of other people using that bathroom.

Ummm. I hope you are never in McD when I pass by with my Sherwin Williams pee bucket.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by Urlauber

Some of the floorplans are pretty cool, like the 17ft Wingamm, or even the older Axion / Ayers Rock etc. Westfalia Nugget with its L-shaped kitchen too.

Not sure about your other points... they are not really that new. A 110V fridge (if that is true) would be a big step back over the existing and proven 12V compressor models.

As for cassettes, this will always divide the masses. Many Americans have serious IFOP (intrinsic fear of poop) and prefer wrestling with stinky hoses rather than dumping in a "rest" room. I have done both and appreciate the many ways a cassette can be emptied. Most sites I frequent don't have dump stations so the problem comes home with you and I think the little suitcase is much easier to deal with.

Disgusting and not respectful? Dunno... as long as it all goes into the right place rather than all over the floor I don't quite follow. Must be the IFOP thing.

Over the years I found most of Cassette related discussions rather fruitless. Strong opinions defeat pluses and minuses logical comparisons. Most of negativism comes from the distance lookers, black tank owners. Often mention negative comments are: they stink, dumping is disgusting, owners have no regards to others, they are too small, they are too heavy, I saw the FITRV video cassette evaluation with a porta potti, for many a deal killer, and no benefits.

[Dave in Nevada]

I did not say they were new ideas, just ideas that the Europeans were using for quite a while and are being seen more in the USA. I have been RVing in a Class A for decades and I never heard of a heater system that runs off gasoline rather than propane. To me that is new.

[GallenH]

Originally Posted by Dave in Nevada

I did not say they were new ideas, just ideas that the Europeans were using for quite a while and are being seen more in the USA. I have been RVing in a Class A for decades and I never heard of a heater system that runs off gasoline rather than propane. To me that is new.

I agree with you on your observations but I'm more interested in the layouts that exist with European Bs. Some interesting ideas that I wish were incorporated in US designs.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Dave in Nevada

I did not say they were new ideas, just ideas that the Europeans were using for quite a while and are being seen more in the USA. I have been RVing in a Class A for decades and I never heard of a heater system that runs off gasoline rather than propane. To me that is new.

They have gasoline-fired heat systems in the US. It just depends on what your van engine is. That's nothing new. Mine is diesel-fired because I have a diesel engine and it is 10 year old technology because the company is just 10 years old. Avanti has an older precursor that the founder had another company adopt and of course it is a system used by truckers for years before. I have no propane whatsoever with a 12v compressor refrigerator and cooking with an induction cooktop and other things we adopt such as electric Instant Pot. Heat as you mentioned can be all electric when plugged into 110v or not if you have the battery power or shore power which is available at almost all private campground and most state parks.

Speaking of battery power, I find European builders short shrifting that capability. In the US they are advancing lithium battery systems in numerous ways to provide the maximum power to eliminate propane. The US is on the verge of eliminating internal combustion generators too with more battery power and under hood second alternators.

As for the cassette toilet you mention dumping that others find objectionable then you mention spraying to clean it out and separate action to dump gray water on the ground which is illegal in just about every campground. Lugging 40 lbs cassette anywhere is long behind me and I doubt my wife could do it. A simpler system is a closed system at both ends of the dumping hose of 1-1/2" with a macerator to first dump black water and then follow with gray water to clean the hose adequately as there are no clumpy solids with macerating. Close a valve at both ends and you are done in a few minutes glove free if you want. No smells, no accidental spills. Also, you can go between dumps with bigger tanks. I can last about 2 weeks with 40 gallons of fresh water and gray and black tanks each about 25 gallons and that's in a small van. I've never seen a European van with that capability.

Variety of layouts? You have to remember, Europe is a diverse area of separate countries with their own companies and camping habits and infrastructure. You are going to get more diverse ideas and needs. Could be Europeans are stuck with cassettes out of necessity because of diversity of campgrounds. North America is two countries with national marketing and campground standards. That leads to greater uniformity and competition which means providing less expensive Class B vans. Companies thus settle on competing layouts which are quite good to satisfy the majority of their customers which tend to be older empty nesters. Europe strikes me to cater to younger families with an abundant amount of second row seats and compromise to sleep more than two people which also makes for more diverse layout ideas.

You can get just about anything you want in the USA. There are quite a variety of custom manufacturers of Class B vans. Most people buy for off the shelf convenience from a dealer network. They also opt for bigger with abundant RV's because the camping infrastructure is set up to handle them.

[RT-NY]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

Strong opinions defeat pluses and minuses logical comparisons.

I want to second this observation and not only in regard to this issue (also, for example, on solar panels, refrigerators, battery chemistry, propane vs. all electric, etc.)! Often, interesting and useful discussion of pluses and minuses that participants could use to make their own decisions based on their own particular needs are drowned out by exaggerated and repeated claims for or against.

[mumkin]

I've had a compressor fridge in a Roadtrek since 2015, and when Hymer owned them, they brought over the cassette system in... 2017 or 2018... and Winnebago later adopted it on their Revel. The pros and cons of that have been beat to death on various forums almost as much as gas vs diesel. lol

[Davydd]

When American manufacturers adopt the cassette toilet it is usually because it is in the back behind the axle where you can't easily dump directly down like the Dometic toilets. It is also popular with DIYers because it is clearly much easier to install without the plumbing complexity. I'm not sure of the Revel in front of the back axle. Maybe it is weight saving and not cost saving because the Revel is not inexpensive. Maybe lifestyle since it is suppose to be an adventure boon docking van off the grid.

Since my toilet is behind the back axle I chose a Tecma marine upflow toilet used in boats below deck. It macerates at the toilet and then pumps the waste up over the back axle to a black tank of 25 gallons or twice a typical Dometic or five times a cassette. The uplow toilet requires electricity to flush and macerate. Suprisingly it doesn't use much water than a Dometic. I thought it would. It doesn't have a flushing tank of water like your home toilet tank. The black tank again macerates along with the gray tank for the pumping action since there are no solids. I mostly boon dock but I can easily plan and get to a dump station in a two week period. I may have gotten the first marine upflow toilet at ARV. I know of another one put in since. They have done all kinds Tecma, Dometic, Cassette and the Composting. Composting is the one I don't understand. It is not compost. Cassettes to me are better.

[avanti]

Just for the record:
Our 2004 Airstream Interstate had a combined gray/black tank directly under the wet-bath, all behind the rear axle. It had an electric dump valve way inboard, with the dump port out the side behind the wheel. The first thing I did (before the toilet was used) was to add a macerator with dual-dump ability.

One of the ferry operators at the old Mammoth Cave ferry would never let me cross because he didn't like the look of the long rear overhang with plumbing under it. He was known among cavers as "Grumpy Al".

[Rocinante]

We're in the "never a cassette toilet" club, with a strong preference for black and grey tanks, with a straight gravity dump - first black, and then grey. That doesn't mean we don't think anyone else should use a cassette, but we won't, and we hope we're never in the next stall when someone shows up with a cassette to dump in a nearby toilet. (shudder). Also agree the trend toward giving oneself permission to just dump grey water any old place represents a collection of poor life choices all at once. Grey water can really and truly stink, depending what's been put down the drain in the galley sink, bathroom sink, and shower.

That said, we're very much in favor of floor plans that have a platform bed and room underneath that bed to store a couple of bicycles. We're sick and tired of keeping our bikes on a carrier on the back. They just get so dirty and abused by the weather out there. There are a number of European models upon which the Winnebago Ekko is based. Would love to see more, better built, options in this vein that are actually Class b units. Panoramic is close to what we want, though we haven't checked the fit for bicycles under that bed.

[Davydd]

I agree about not carrying stuff on the outside of a van. I did buy a cargo carrier once and used it only once and then sold it. It adds about 3 feet or more to you van and I think it is kind of silly to buy a short van and then carry something on the back. I had the longest van at the time. I've never carried bicycles. I did design my van with adjustable shelves and 27 cubic feet inside vertically in the back for versatility. I showed ARV my drawings with two folding bikes. Mike Neundorfer the president of ARV is an avid biker and his first reaction is you could carry two normal bikes by hanging the vertically in a short 144 Sprinter van of 19'-4". I hadn't thought of that because in truth I never really considered bicycles. I do have more inside storage of most vans other than a high platform bed to get bikes underneath or storage. I am more likely to carry my inflatable kayaks. What I showed in my design and reality of what I carry.

[RobRyan]

Originally Posted by mumkin

I've had a compressor fridge in a Roadtrek since 2015, and when Hymer owned them, they brought over the cassette system in... 2017 or 2018... and Winnebago later adopted it on their Revel. The pros and cons of that have been beat to death on various forums almost as much as gas vs diesel. lol

Yes we have had the same discussions in Australia. Most prefer cassettes here
As far as instant hot water heaters, that goes back to the 1980's here being used in many Offices.
Last count I came up with roughly 36 " outfitters" of Class B's' about the same number as the US and Canada combined. It suprised me.
Lithium batteries is there any other type? No Europeans maybe slow in taking them up.
Chassis used for Class B's all European Vans, which includes the Renault Master and VW Crafter you do not get in the US. We also build on Asian Vans as well.
Unique to Australian and New Zealand is the " Coaster" 20 to 23ft Japanese Buses 4.2 to 7litre diesels that are treated like Van based Class B's

[Excelwpg]

American RVs are stuck in the 70's.
There has been no real innovation for decades.
European designs are far more advanced, make better use of space, and are much more ergonomic.
American RV's are still just boxes inside of boxes filled with boxes. The colours change, but that's about it.

And as far as cassette toilets are concerned, they are much more accessible, flexible and can be installed into virtually any type of RV. Nothing is more useless and cumbersome than the typical small capacity black tank in an American style RV (9-12 gallon). Dumping requires specific facilities whereas a cassette can literally be dumped anywhere.

[Davydd]

It has already been said in this thread, dumping "anywhere", especially public toilets, is the scourge for many other RVer. Besides, you have to dump grey water anyway because it is forbidden in most every campground to dump on the ground and you are not going to be able to do it boon docking elsewhere like Walmart's, etc.

Americans have a better method and the infrastructure to handle it. BTW, I have a 25 gallon black tank.

[Excelwpg]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Americans have a better method and the infrastructure to handle it.

Infrastructure is very limited in the US. Outside of campgrounds, there aren't many places to dump, and many of those charge.

Toilets are far more prevalent, and don't cost anything to dump. There are rest stations everywhere. Hell, you can even dump in your own house if you need to!
You also don't need to carry an additional dump tank should you decide to dump and not wish to move your RV.

[GallenH]

Cassette vs traditional black/grey tanks has been bandered around on this site for a long while. Bottom line is that choice of which is better depends solely on the user. Both have their pros and cons.

I hadn't thought about davydd's comment regarding grey tanks, however. It's a good point. That water has to go somewhere. Since I do a navy wash every day that I'm out, grey fills up as rapidly as black.

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by GallenH

Cassette vs traditional black/grey tanks has been bandered around on this site for a long while. Bottom line is that choice of which is better depends solely on the user. Both have their pros and cons.

I hadn't thought about davydd's comment regarding grey tanks, however. It's a good point. That water has to go somewhere. Since I do a navy wash every day that I'm out, grey fills up as rapidly as black.

Indeed, it depends on the user. For our needs the setup of 5 gal cassette plus a spare, 14 gal grey tank, 12 gal fresh tank and 4 gal water heater is almost perfect for ours few days long outings. We rarely use the spare cassette. We don’t have indoor shower so 14gal grey usually last for a full trip so it is dumped primerly at home or sometimes at dump station.

We use cassette since 2013, never had a spill, toilets drain by themselves without flushing, use flush to rinse mostly empty bowl. Dumping takes seconds including toilet self drain, way less than a person sitting and dumping their own untreated waste. I use oxygen ladden chemistry to minimize the odor. So, I never had a dumping mishap drainng our cassette but did walk in between corn kernels on dump stations with previous RVs.