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Old 01-14-2015, 04:49 PM   #201
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

Quote:
Originally Posted by gerrym51
I love it but won't be ordering it.

we'vedecidedbed comfort is the mos timportant item

the roadtrekfixed dinette like this will be it

http://www.rvworldinc.com/Page.aspx/dii ... er-RT.aspx



you'll have to click on the 2 dinette pictures

I'm not sure what the Roadtrek Ranger RT has that the Zion doesn't? Both have tables that can be used on the back.
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Old 01-19-2015, 07:49 PM   #202
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

Well- this is new -i might actually get a zion with the Onan-or no generator at all.

heres why. I've been informed that the battery and the 2000 watt inverter are standard(per customer service). ifthis is so and since the alternator that comes with the zion is 220 amps i don't see how buying the engine generator is super useful as the engine generator costs only 200 dollars less than the Onan. if the price for the 280 ampalternator was a lot less(rememeber the battery and inverter are standard) the price seems way to high.if it had a lot more battery capacity i could see it.

any opinons-need advice

this is the one the wife wants- i know it is not my best electrical option.please just stick to the zion option i outlined-thanks
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Old 01-19-2015, 08:46 PM   #203
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

An alternator is about a $700 item. An Onan RV generator is a $2,400 item. I have to believe installing an alternator would be much cheaper than installing an Onan. How can it cost nearly as much as an Onan generator? Have you asked Roadtrek to explain it?
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Old 01-19-2015, 09:00 PM   #204
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

I'd go with the Onan. You've indicated that the battery capacity is only around 180Ah. That's what is in my old van. I had 200Ah in the '04 RT 190P, no generator. An Onan would have been / would be a nice upgrade for both those vans.

3 additional things to find out if I was making the decision:

1. capacity rating (amps) of isolator or battery separator
2. capacity rating (gauge) of wire from isolator or battery separator to house battery
3. capacity rating (amps) of fusing on that wire

Usually you select an isolator (or battery seperator) rated to match the output amps of the alternator. It should be all rated to handle 220 amps.

You won't get that full output at normal idle but it still should output a substantial amount of amps.

Alternators can fail and need to be replaced. I guess an Onan could fail too but it probably is not considered to be a replaceable item like an alternator.

Edited: I meant 220 amps not 280 amps
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Old 01-19-2015, 09:27 PM   #205
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

Quote:
Originally Posted by markopolo
I'd go with the Onan. You've indicated that the battery capacity is only around 180Ah. That's what is in my old van. I had 200Ah in the '04 RT 190P, no generator. An Onan would have been / would be a nice upgrade for both those vans.

3 additional things to find out if I was making the decision:

1. capacity rating (amps) of isolator or battery separator
2. capacity rating (gauge) of wire from isolator or battery separator to house battery
3. capacity rating (amps) of fusing on that wire

Usually you select an isolator (or battery seperator) rated to match the output amps of the alternator. It should be all rated to handle 280 amps (Edit: that should be 220 amps).

You won't get that full output at normal idle but it still should output a substantial amount of amps.

Alternators can fail and need to be replaced. I guess an Onan could fail too but it probably is not considered to be a replaceable item like an alternator.
All very good points.

Roadtrek, historically anyway, has had pretty lightweight wiring from the engine to the batteries. The isolator systems mostly had 50 amp breakers in the line to the rear, and the later ones (like our 07) had 80 amp breakers. Even a 220 amp alternator will be able to trip the breakers if they are not big enough, with wiring to match, if the batteries will accept it. A near dead 180AH AGM or tppl battery is going to accept as much as that alternator will give it, so you would want something in the range of 200 amp capable, minimum, wire and 250 amp fusing. If they use less than that, you can wind up cycling on the breakers, which will wear them out quickly, and cause lots of unwanted voltage spikes.

As Marko says, that would be very good information to get from Roadtrek before you buy, as upgrading is not all that easy or cheap once the van is built. Of course it all may be in magic box marked "proprietary" and they won't tell what is in there.
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Old 01-19-2015, 10:06 PM   #206
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

Booster makes a good point about the wire size. It can be less than the 220 amp rating of the alternator. It should be substantial though. Fusing should be appropriate for the wire size.

You may think this is not something to consider if you go with the Onan but it is. It might not be that unusual to start driving with a very low TPPL battery that, as Booster points out, if very low, will take all the amps the alternator can offer.

Gerry - you probably just wanted a simple answer: Onan or engine generator. I mentioned all the above because of your interest in the engine generator idea. My guess is that you'd consider running the engine to charge the battery quickly even if you had the Onan.
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Old 01-20-2015, 12:53 AM   #207
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

My feeling is that if the wiring is all there and capable of accepting the amps, I wouldn't hesitate to get rid of the Onan brick, especially since it would be the gas model.
Not that it means anything here, but that 3.6 Pentastar is one smooth running, quiet motor. We can be sitting in our Jeep Wrangler that has that engine, with hardly any insulation in it, with the motor idling, and not even hear or feel it.
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Old 01-20-2015, 02:35 AM   #208
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

Quote:
Originally Posted by markopolo
I cropped and enlarged it for viewing. Gerry can confirm that the only text missing is:
Effective Dec 16, 2014 (terms on reverse) Please fax to ###-###-####
and the word: Total (no amount)



Remember, the Zion is slated for production in February 2015. I think it is best to discuss options, details, prices etc. with your dealer. Let them get the specifics direct from Roadtrek. Clarify what 400 AMP battery means if that detail is important to you etc.

I think you can get side twin beds OR forward facing rear sofa on most Roadtrek models when ordered from the factor through a dealer.

if you look at the pricesheet the onan is 3700 dollars and the engine generator is 3500. i asked them if the battery and inverter are standard why is the engine generator the same priceas the 4 battery packagesin the others.i got no answer

the price sheet is earlier in this thread it won'tseem to quote over
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File Type: jpg Zion Order Form Dec 16 2014 cropped.jpg (141.2 KB, 198 views)
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Old 01-20-2015, 02:38 AM   #209
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davydd
An alternator is about a $700 item. An Onan RV generator is a $2,400 item. I have to believe installing an alternator would be much cheaper than installing an Onan. How can it cost nearly as much as an Onan generator? Have you asked Roadtrek to explain it?

roadtrek is charging 3500 dollars for the engine generator
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Old 01-20-2015, 02:41 AM   #210
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

as far as i can tell the choice is the onan or no generator.

based on the standard 2000watt inverter and the standard 185 amp tppl(the northstar sms 400) the standard 220 amp alternator should be sufficient for charging.

iwould have buy the spare tire holder on the backfor 600 if i want the onan

iwill not order or buy anything until i get final specs posted on their webpage.

i also plan to buy the 200 watts of solar package
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Old 01-20-2015, 03:09 AM   #211
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

Quote:
Originally Posted by gerrym51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davydd
An alternator is about a $700 item. An Onan RV generator is a $2,400 item. I have to believe installing an alternator would be much cheaper than installing an Onan. How can it cost nearly as much as an Onan generator? Have you asked Roadtrek to explain it?

roadtrek is charging 3500 dollars for the engine generator
All I did was go to Nation's Alternator web site and find the one single alternator for a Promaster - $700 which is typical of most all their alternators. I'd be curious how they price it at 5X and only $200 less overall than an Onan generator which probably has more labor and support materials to install.
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Old 01-20-2015, 03:12 AM   #212
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

Confirm the inverter size with the Onan option and find out if running the Onan will charge the batteries.

Could be Tripp-Lite with Onan and some other brand with engine generator. Just guessing. The order sheet doesn't note the size of the inverter.
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Old 01-20-2015, 03:19 AM   #213
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davydd
Quote:
Originally Posted by gerrym51
Quote:
Originally Posted by Davydd
An alternator is about a $700 item. An Onan RV generator is a $2,400 item. I have to believe installing an alternator would be much cheaper than installing an Onan. How can it cost nearly as much as an Onan generator? Have you asked Roadtrek to explain it?

roadtrek is charging 3500 dollars for the engine generator
All I did was go to Nation's Alternator web site and find the one single alternator for a Promaster - $700 which is typical of most all their alternators. I'd be curious how they price it at 5X and only $200 less overall than an Onan generator which probably has more labor and support materials to install.

davydd- i also was aware of how much the alternatorcosts from nationsalternator. thats what iasked after learning the 200o wattinverter was standard


in roadtreks defense-i play fair-the zion was originally supposed to be just engine generator standard with its other parts in place. then the dealer meeting happend and suddenlythe onan is now available.so they made both onan and engine options-but still charged the full engine generator price even though the inverter and battery were standard. i get this from theircustomer service and i'm not sure theyare correct
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Old 01-20-2015, 03:21 AM   #214
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

Quote:
Originally Posted by markopolo
Confirm the inverter size with the Onan option and find out if running the Onan will charge the batteries.

Could be Tripp-Lite with Onan and some other brand with engine generator. Just guessing. The order sheet doesn't note the size of the inverter.
it actually does not matter if the onan charges the batteries. the 220amp alternator and the 2 solar panels should do the trick.

it is that tppl 185 amp battery.

i may not get the onan at all

i'll do nothing until they post final specs

i just sent this to my dealer

with the zion

1. whatsize inverter charger do i get if i get neither generator,
2 with onan
3 with engine generator

i also don't know if it will be an inverter/charger or a separate converter charger and separate inverter.
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Old 01-20-2015, 05:12 AM   #215
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

I couldn't find any info on the output specs of the Promaster 180A & 220A OEM alternators

Nations has this 270A alternator for a Promaster: http://www.nationsstarteralternator.com ... -270xp.htm

It gives an idea of the expected output at idle (when new).

Quote:
Quick Overview
Mounting Type......................Direct fit to OEM Mounting
Output Voltage.....................PCM Controlled
Idle Amperage......................180
Hot Idle Amperage @ 200F......165
Max Amperage.....................270
Hot Max Amperage @ 200F .....230
I wanted to find the idle output specs of the Promaster 180A & 220A OEM alternators. Then you could guess at what amps the van needs to run and guess at how many amps would be leftover for house battery charging.
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Old 01-20-2015, 12:33 PM   #216
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

I thought the offering from Roadtrek was:

Onan generator,

or

Engine generator (extra alternator) + inverter.

If it's a decent inverter, then the costs are more even up I would think.
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Old 01-20-2015, 01:03 PM   #217
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

Quote:
Originally Posted by markopolo
I couldn't find any info on the output specs of the Promaster 180A & 220A OEM alternators

Nations has this 270A alternator for a Promaster: http://www.nationsstarteralternator.com ... -270xp.htm

It gives an idea of the expected output at idle (when new).

Quote:
Quick Overview
Mounting Type......................Direct fit to OEM Mounting
Output Voltage.....................PCM Controlled
Idle Amperage......................180
Hot Idle Amperage @ 200F......165
Max Amperage.....................270
Hot Max Amperage @ 200F .....230
I wanted to find the idle output specs of the Promaster 180A & 220A OEM alternators. Then you could guess at what amps the van needs to run and guess at how many amps would be leftover for house battery charging.
I know we have talked about it before, but alternator specs can be very deceptive if they don't give the rpm they are rated at. The "traditional" rpm was 2400 at the alternator, and most still use that even though in the actual application you might be running at much less. Our Chevy runs at 1800 rpm at the alternator. Seeing an actual output curve is a huge help. I didn't look at the Nations site, but they are a good company so may have all the information posted, or could at least give it to you.

OEM alternators seem to lose more from getting hot than some of the aftermarket ones, 20-25% from most of what I have seen. Our Chevy one also got hot very quickly. I have also heard that running them at over 50% regularly can shorten their life a lot, but can't confirm it because most to the information came from the aftermarket competition.

Having the amperage be down a little at idle may actually be a good thing for charging the batteries as you could prevent the huge amperage spike caused by near dead batteries by letting it idle for a while. The downside of lower idle amps would be if you want to run the microwave off the alternator and inverter without using battery power. You need about 90-105 amps for that (+ whatever the engine is using).

The good thing is that the Nations alternator is available and is PCM controlled drop in, it appears. As long as the wiring was big enough, you just get one if the OEM fails. Still lots cheaper than the other options.
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Old 01-20-2015, 01:59 PM   #218
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

There's 3 info tabs on the that Nations alternator link. The specs under the "features" tab are different from the specs under the "performance/technical specs" tab.

Under the "performance/technical specs" tab the 270 amp alternator at 1800 RPM ( alternator shaft) (like your Chevy) equals 157 amps output.
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Old 01-20-2015, 02:12 PM   #219
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

instead of driving myself crazy i will wait for final specs. thanks for your opinions

my dealer just sent me an e-mail saying there will be a zion at weekend show.also a factory rep-although some of the reps are not knowledgable.


wincrasher-the way you describe it is howit worksin all other models. engine generator is a package of extra alternator bigger inverter more bateries special wiring. it just seems different for the zion-sofar
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Old 01-20-2015, 02:18 PM   #220
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Default Re: Roadtrek is making a ProMaster model... Zion

Quote:
Originally Posted by markopolo
There's 3 info tabs on the that Nations alternator link. The specs under the "features" tab are different from the specs under the "performance/technical specs" tab.

Under the "performance/technical specs" tab the 270 amp alternator at 1800 RPM ( alternator shaft) (like your Chevy) equals 157 amps output.
Gotta love it when that happens! I did finally get to the page, for some reason the DSL has bee absolutely creeping along this morning.

Going by the part number and the spec sheet, it appears that this is a DC Power Engineering alternator, in a case made to fit the Promaster. The specs are identical for this one which fits the minivan.

https://www.dcpowerinc.com/fit/Chrys...formance_sheet

Nations sells others that are DC Power also, but they don't state it on this one like they do on the others. They are very good alternators from all I have ever heard. It is nice they have one available so quickly.
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