Journey with Confidence RV GPS App RV Trip Planner RV LIFE Campground Reviews RV Maintenance Take a Speed Test Free 7 Day Trial ×
 
 


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 09-30-2022, 01:14 AM   #1
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 406
Default Thor Dazzle/Twist

Thor has introduced a new entry level Class B under the Dazzle and Twist model names (who comes up with these ).

Based on the 21ft extended Promaster 3500 chassis, Dazzle and Twist feature traditional rear sofa bed (2JB) and pull-out dinette (2AB) floorplans. Features include multiplex wiring and control system, cassette toilets, 1000 watt inverter, microwave, 190w solar, Onan QG2800 generator, ShowerMiser water saver, prewiring for satellite and cell boost, and optional pop-top sleeping area.

Among the changes made to simplify or cut costs compared to the Sequence and Tellaro:
  • Truma Combi Eco (no shore electric mode)
  • Awning deleted
  • Flat-front cabinets (vs Technoform curved)
  • Zip-up window shades (similar to Solis)
  • Weatherproof woven seating (vs Ultraleather)
  • No TV includes, prewired for satellite and cable
Dazzle/Twist pricing starts at $122k, undercutting Winnebago's Solis PX entry level Promaster 3500 offering by $18k. However Solis provides a rear flex bed with gear garage layout, a useful floorplan often preferred by families and outdoor enthusiasts. The Dazzle/Twist floorplans are much more traditional in comparison.
__________________

rockymtnb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2022, 01:33 AM   #2
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 10,927
Default

It is still hard to comprehend how an entry level Promaster class b can start at $122K


We saw RV show special Travatos for just over 50K when they first came out.
__________________

booster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-30-2022, 04:59 PM   #3
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Posts: 406
Default Other Thor model changes

A few more Thor model additions and floorplans for 2023:

Thor Rize and Scope:
18G floorplan with rear bath and full width pull-out dinette bed. Replaces previous 18T with partial side pull-out bed.

Thor Sanctuary and Tranquility Transit AWD:
Ford Transit 20ft AWD Ecoboost gas versions of the Sprinter 4wd Sanctuary/Tranquility models (which continue to be offered).
All Sanctuary/Tranquility models are now updated with 400ah lithium, 3000w inverter and secondary alternator in place of the original Onan generators.
rockymtnb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2022, 01:38 AM   #4
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Tinley Park IL
Posts: 261
Default

[QUOTE=booster;142461]It is still hard to comprehend how an entry level Promaster class b can start at $122K

Why, it's WAY better than the Mercedes that spends more time in the shop than on the road. More and more manufacturers are breaking ties with MB. You couldn't pay me to own a newer MB, unless I was allowed to sell it.
ChicagoTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2022, 01:57 AM   #5
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 10,927
Default

[QUOTE=ChicagoTom;142601]
Quote:
Originally Posted by booster View Post
It is still hard to comprehend how an entry level Promaster class b can start at $122K

Why, it's WAY better than the Mercedes that spends more time in the shop than on the road. More and more manufacturers are breaking ties with MB. You couldn't pay me to own a newer MB, unless I was allowed to sell it.

But MB is not considered an entry level RV either so not a decent comparison for pricing. The RVs mentioned are considered entry level and on the Promaster which have been lower cost chassis since the beginning. Pricing is about double the entry level Travato pricing when first offered in 2014/2015. Travato was pretty much the first entry level van and much less money than the Fords, Chevies and MB based vans at that time.
booster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2022, 02:05 AM   #6
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Tinley Park IL
Posts: 261
Default

[QUOTE=booster;142602]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoTom View Post


But MB is not considered an entry level RV either so not a decent comparison for pricing. The RVs mentioned are considered entry level and on the Promaster which have been lower cost chassis since the beginning. Pricing is about double the entry level Travato pricing when first offered in 2014/2015. Travato was pretty much the first entry level van and much less money than the Fords, Chevies and MB based vans at that time.
LOL Check out the new Airstreams. They too have had it with MB. Are you calling that an entry too? https://www.airstream.com/touring-coaches/rangeline/
ChicagoTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2022, 02:18 AM   #7
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 10,927
Default

[QUOTE=ChicagoTom;142603]
Quote:
Originally Posted by booster View Post
LOL Check out the new Airstreams. They too have had it with MB. Are you calling that an entry too? https://www.airstream.com/touring-coaches/rangeline/

They probably are for Airstream which has always been considered, rightly or not, a premium builder. Still a lot cheaper than their MB vans but not into the general market low end entry level like the vans this thread is talking about. Prodmaster is generally the lowest price chassis for RVs across the board for the manufacturers, but that doesn't mean that all of them would be the same, and lowest in the market, price. This discussion is about a specific model that was compared to another similar model so that is what the comments are about. Confusing the issue with "whatabouts" is not a part of the discussion, IMO.
booster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2022, 02:23 PM   #8
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Tinley Park IL
Posts: 261
Default

[QUOTE=booster;142604]
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChicagoTom View Post


They probably are for Airstream which has always been considered, rightly or not, a premium builder. Still a lot cheaper than their MB vans but not into the general market low end entry level like the vans this thread is talking about. Prodmaster is generally the lowest price chassis for RVs across the board for the manufacturers, but that doesn't mean that all of them would be the same, and lowest in the market, price. This discussion is about a specific model that was compared to another similar model so that is what the comments are about. Confusing the issue with "whatabouts" is not a part of the discussion, IMO.
"Confusing the issue with "whatabouts" is not a part of the discussion" Who says it's not part of the discussion? Sorry it took so long to reply. I was out enjoying my day and didn't have time for 24/7 replies on an internet forum.
ChicagoTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2022, 02:26 PM   #9
Platinum Member
 
@Michael's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: MN
Posts: 396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rockymtnb View Post
A few more Thor model additions and floorplans for 2023:

Thor Rize and Scope:
18G floorplan with rear bath and full width pull-out dinette bed. Replaces previous 18T with partial side pull-out bed.

Thor Sanctuary and Tranquility Transit AWD:
Ford Transit 20ft AWD Ecoboost gas versions of the Sprinter 4wd
And the Tellaro, apparently positioned a bit upscale from Twist/Dazzle and a bit closer to Airstreams Rangeline.

I doubt that there is a wholesale abandonment of the Mercedes chassis. More likely that mfg's are leveraging the lower cost Ram chassis to fill in gaps in their offerings.
__________________
2019 Coachmen Crossfit
My Campervan Modifications and Travel Blog
@Michael is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2022, 03:39 PM   #10
Platinum Member
 
Davydd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,740
Default

My first Sprinter Pleasure-way Class B was $56,000 in 2005. I thought that was costly at the time. How much is a bare bones Promaster compared to a bare bones Sprinter to start out? I doubt it is significant to the overall cost of today's Class Bs other than Promasters are more designed for cost savings generally in the build outs. At least they have that option over most Sprinter offerings. Class Bs are way more because of inflation and people having more desires in the build outs. More battery power, lithium, solar, compressor refrigerators, macerators, mult-plex lighting and control panels, custom builds, etc. were not much available if at all in 2005. In 2005 what you got in a Class B was pretty much all the same. The only difference was Chevy or Sprinter. Inflation is the most significant difference especially in the build out.
__________________
Davydd
2021 Advanced RV 144 custom Sprinter
2015 Advanced RV Extended body Sprinter
2011 Great West Van Legend Sprinter
2005 Pleasure-way Plateau TS Sprinter
Davydd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2022, 03:57 PM   #11
Site Team
 
avanti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 4,974
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by @Michael View Post
I doubt that there is a wholesale abandonment of the Mercedes chassis.
I doubt it, too. But not for any deep reason. The RV industry (not uniquely) is driven largely by curb appeal. Upfitters offer designs and features that impress naive purchasers during a 30-minute demo in a dealer's parking lot. This tends to lead to superficial decisions about what to build. Examples range from pointlessly powerful A/C systems with heat pumps all the way down to built-in bud vases. Prominent on this list is the MB 3-pointed star. New purchasers love the idea of owning an RV that says "Mercedes Benz" on it. The realities of owning such a vehicle are a matter for another day--long after the decision is made.
__________________
Formerly: 2005 Airstream Interstate (Sprinter 2500 T1N)
Now: 2014 Great West Vans Legend SE (Sprinter 3500 NCV3 I4)
Next: 2022 Fully-custom buildout (Ford Transit EcoBoost AWD)
avanti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2022, 04:05 PM   #12
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Tinley Park IL
Posts: 261
Default

It gets old seeing post about how MB is the better chassis, because of price. I'm still amazed at how someone can buy a new Class B and not investigate what a mess MB is. BTW, Chassis prices are all over the woodwork. This link shows them at the same cost. https://www.cars.com/research/compar...indow_van-2022
ChicagoTom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2022, 04:12 PM   #13
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 10,927
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davydd View Post
My first Sprinter Pleasure-way Class B was $56,000 in 2005. I thought that was costly at the time. How much is a bare bones Promaster compared to a bare bones Sprinter to start out? I doubt it is significant to the overall cost of today's Class Bs other than Promasters are more designed for cost savings generally in the build outs. At least they have that option over most Sprinter offerings. Class Bs are way more because of inflation and people having more desires in the build outs. More battery power, lithium, solar, compressor refrigerators, macerators, mult-plex lighting and control panels, custom builds, etc. were not much available if at all in 2005. In 2005 what you got in a Class B was pretty much all the same. The only difference was Chevy or Sprinter. Inflation is the most significant difference especially in the build out.

According to this site https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inf.../2005?amount=1 inflation total since 2005 is 52% which would put your $55K van at $83.6 so that is a chunk, but are there really another $43K worth of new features on an entry level van? Supply and demand and Roadtrek dropping out for a time made for a lot shortages and the manufacturers certainly took advantage of that to improve their margins it appears.


I also don't believe that MB will disappear from the RV market as this is not a cheap hobby to have so lots of well off buyers who cherish the high end reputation of MB, kind of like getting a big heavy Rolex watch.
booster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2022, 08:25 PM   #14
Platinum Member
 
Davydd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,740
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by booster View Post
According to this site https://www.in2013dollars.com/us/inf.../2005?amount=1 inflation total since 2005 is 52% which would put your $55K van at $83.6 so that is a chunk, but are there really another $43K worth of new features on an entry level van? Supply and demand and Roadtrek dropping out for a time made for a lot shortages and the manufacturers certainly took advantage of that to improve their margins it appears.


I also don't believe that MB will disappear from the RV market as this is not a cheap hobby to have so lots of well off buyers who cherish the high end reputation of MB, kind of like getting a big heavy Rolex watch.
Do you believe that? I don't believe it is true in vehicles. My sticker price (MSRP) for my current Sprinter starting out as a cargo van was about equivalent to my totally built out 2005 Pleasure-way. There is absolutely no way today to upfit it to a Class B which would be about $100,000 total with that inflation and the current price of a Sprinter that I can tell you is not 52% inflation. That cheap Thor Dazzle/Twist was $122,000. What is the top of the line Pleasure-way today because that was what my 2005 was? That would be the true inflation value which I said people are demanding more as well.
__________________
Davydd
2021 Advanced RV 144 custom Sprinter
2015 Advanced RV Extended body Sprinter
2011 Great West Van Legend Sprinter
2005 Pleasure-way Plateau TS Sprinter
Davydd is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2022, 08:34 PM   #15
Platinum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 10,927
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Davydd View Post
Do you believe that? I don't believe it is true in vehicles. My sticker price (MSRP) for my current Sprinter starting out as a cargo van was about equivalent to my totally built out 2005 Pleasure-way. There is absolutely no way today to upfit it to a Class B which would be about $100,000 total with that inflation and the current price of a Sprinter that I can tell you is not 52% inflation. That cheap Thor Dazzle/Twist was $122,000. What is the top of the line Pleasure-way today because that was what my 2005 was? That would be the true inflation value which I said people are demanding more as well.

Can't say if it is accurate for vehicles or not, especially if you look at actual cost to produce the vehicles and not selling price. As I said, the manufacturers, both of the base vehicle and the RV section are likely making much higher margins now than in 2005 due to shortages and popularity of the products. Just because the charge twice as much doesn't necessarily mean that it cost them twice as much to build, IMO.
booster is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-07-2022, 09:12 PM   #16
Platinum Member
 
Davydd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 5,740
Default

My brother bought a Newmar Class A last year and said he would give it 5 years full-timing. Well he lasted just one year. He said he couldn't resist an offer of $60,000 more than he paid for it so he says. He got that because new ones in one year exceeded by a lot more than $60,000. I think he barely used it traveling and made his decision not to full-time already.
__________________

__________________
Davydd
2021 Advanced RV 144 custom Sprinter
2015 Advanced RV Extended body Sprinter
2011 Great West Van Legend Sprinter
2005 Pleasure-way Plateau TS Sprinter
Davydd is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Featured Campgrounds

Reviews provided by

Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
×