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Old 04-29-2018, 05:11 PM   #1
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Default Is diesel dead?

“Is there still a future for the diesel engine? According to Bosch, the answer is yes—this week the German company announced it had made a breakthrough by combining a number of existing technologies, which means that modern turbodiesel engines can still make good power and deliver excellent fuel efficiencies. At the same time, Bosch says this combo will emit very low levels of dangerous nitrogen oxides (NOx)—in fact, the company says it can beat future European emissions regulations by 90 percent.”

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2018/04...nox-emissions/
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Old 04-29-2018, 05:40 PM   #2
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Interesting article, but pretty sketchy. Smaller displacement seems an odd way to improve very much, as they already chose displacement and combustion chamber shapes to maximize output and minimize emissions. Faster spooling turbos are normally a good thing, although they also normally limit the max output of the turbo at the same time, so balance is needed. Turbo stuff can be very hard to balance the fuel (and timing if gas) to match the driving profile of the turbo airflow, so it looks as if they are looking of more consistency with fewer air spikes and troughs, which can be pretty common in turbo setups.

The biggest thing that is likely helping them is probably the changes in the EGR setup, with them actually going to two stages of it apparently. If they have high and low pressure setups for EGR, they will be able to have exhaust recirculation with more of the varying pressures seen in the exhaust and intake sides. It can get tough to precisely control EGR when you have to deal with 0-2Bar on the intake and 0-3Bar on the exhaust, sides. Just guessing at their pressured, though.

The big concern might be that using more EGR could make the fuel contamination and plugging issues worse.

No mention of DEF, that I saw, though.
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Old 04-29-2018, 07:10 PM   #3
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.

The Wild Experimental Engine That Uses Gas and Diesel

https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-car...sion-ignition/

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Old 04-29-2018, 11:24 PM   #4
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until they come up with gasoline engines that can deliver the power and torque needed in BIG TRUCK loads and towing diesel is not dead.

I suspect it will be dead in cars and small trucks.
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:48 PM   #5
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gerrym51 is absolutely correct......

RVs and especially trucks like the Sprinter diesel certainly need power and torque... they're not dead.
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Old 04-30-2018, 08:07 PM   #6
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Time will tell, but with the improvements of gas engine technology, I think it is very likely that gas could take over, unless some other source comes along.

Just look at the numbers for the twin turbo gas Ecoboost engines which have been designed to pull weight and load, like a turbo diesel, at lower rpm. I am sure there currently isn't enough market to justify a designing a semi truck size gas engine from scratch, but I do think it could be done.
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Old 04-30-2018, 08:24 PM   #7
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It has always been dead for me .

Right now around where I live diesel is sixty cents a gallon more expensive than 87 octane gasoline. That's 26 % more for diesel. Plus, on a small motorhome, the initial purchase price is significantly greater - obviously more on some brands than others. Now, that being said, I know folks love their Sprinters and some get great service out of them and don't mind the extra cost of purchase and service and fuel (which certainly varies from location to location).

I suspect diesel will always be around and so will gasoline.....at least for the rest of my lifetime. My Chevy 6L in the Roadtrek takes me anywhere I want to go, carries a lot of cargo and has a towing capacity of over 7,000 pounds (but the hitch is rated less than that).

I never intend on buying a Class A but if I did I would, of course, want a diesel pusher. But I doubt it would do well in a 25 foot back in space in some beautiful National Forest campground.

It is marvelous that we have such choices on our Bs today as compared to a couple of decades ago and we can have a diesel if we want one and a gasser if we so desire.

Ain't that great????!! All Bs used to be just Dodge, Ford or Chevy vans tweaked and dressed up for Saturday night.

And PLEASE....I don't mean this post to start the old argument between diesel and gasoline. I just mean for some of us, perhaps many of us, diesels are not and have not been a consideration.

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Old 04-30-2018, 10:17 PM   #8
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Paul, I won't start any great debate about diesel vs. gas... And, I know that in 2019 Mercedes Benz is planning on releasing an electric Sprinter in Europe...We have a 2009 Toyota Prius... climbing through the Rocky Mountains..it barely reached the 11,000 foot summit.. went down to about 25 MPH..made it... BUT..it was slowly climbing.. I've been in mountainus areas with gas and now my turbo diesel...the gasoline engines have to work a little bit harder and rev more to climb steep mountain grades... diesel makes more low end torque... just a fact.

None of these are designed to be speed demons...and all have pros and cons... diesel is probably more expensive to purchase, maintain and right now purchase fuel.... BUT, as for running out of power.. that's NOT one of their problems...

I've got a friend with the same Chevy 6 litre engine and he loves it...

Finally, it's all about enjoying your rig..... So.... enjoy.....
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Old 04-30-2018, 10:45 PM   #9
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Modern direct-injection gas engines with variable-geometry turbochargers, paired with many-geared (8 for more) electronically-controlled transmissions are a whole new ball game. These drivetrains are miraculous. They can be engineered for whatever load profile is required.

Moreover, between the VW scandal and the DEF reliability debacle, I believe that diesel's reputation is beyond repair. Diesel will hang on for a long time, but I doubt that anybody is going to invest R&D dollars in new-generation designs (beyond the current pipeline). The promise of all-electric trucks is the last nail in the coffin.

The Bosch article is a last ditch act of desperation.
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Old 04-30-2018, 10:48 PM   #10
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Diesel had never been a worthy consideration for Class B
until that "New" Dodge company canceled the old reliable
and imported the Sprinter as a replacement.

Then the market crashed and sucked the oxygen out of the RV market.

Then the RV upfitter discover a new niche --- ride on the Mercedes Coattail
and sell "premium$$$" RV to the wealthy folks.

All of a sudden diesel was in fashion.


Just my casual observation.
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Old 04-30-2018, 10:54 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by gerrym51 View Post
until they come up with gasoline engines that can deliver the power and torque needed in BIG TRUCK loads and towing diesel is not dead.

I suspect it will be dead in cars and small trucks.
Not small Pickups,” Trucks” for you in NA. Diesel has replaced Gas engines here and outside NA in Pickups
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Old 04-30-2018, 10:55 PM   #12
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Things to remember about the comparisons.

Gas turbo engines perform just as well as diesel turbos at altitude.

Gas engines, especially turbo ones, can be designed to get the power bandwidth wherever you want, so can get very high low end torque if desired. As Avanti said, the many gear transmissions now available will allow the engines to be designed to a narrower power and efficiency range, just like diesels have been with all their gears, so lots of benefit there.
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Old 04-30-2018, 10:57 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1 View Post
Paul, I won't start any great debate about diesel vs. gas... And, I know that in 2019 Mercedes Benz is planning on releasing an electric Sprinter in Europe...We have a 2009 Toyota Prius... climbing through the Rocky Mountains..it barely reached the 11,000 foot summit.. went down to about 25 MPH..made it... BUT..it was slowly climbing.. I've been in mountainus areas with gas and now my turbo diesel...the gasoline engines have to work a little bit harder and rev more to climb steep mountain grades... diesel makes more low end torque... just a fact.

None of these are designed to be speed demons...and all have pros and cons... diesel is probably more expensive to purchase, maintain and right now purchase fuel.... BUT, as for running out of power.. that's NOT one of their problems...

I've got a friend with the same Chevy 6 litre engine and he loves it...

Finally, it's all about enjoying your rig..... So.... enjoy.....
Electric Sprinter for short deliveries in European cities. Also the FWD Sprinter will be another delivery option, having a flat floor
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Old 04-30-2018, 10:59 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by booster View Post
Things to remember about the comparisons.

Gas turbo engines perform just as well as diesel turbos at altitude.

Gas engines, especially turbo ones, can be designed to get the power bandwidth wherever you want, so can get very high low end torque if desired. As Avanti said, the many gear transmissions now available will allow the engines to be designed to a narrower power and efficiency range, just like diesels have been with all their gears, so lots of benefit there.
Emphasis by MB will be on the Diesel in the US. Gas engine is a option
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Old 04-30-2018, 11:03 PM   #15
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A couple of years ago we got a Honda Accord with 2.5l 4 cylinders with a continuously variable transmission - CVT, gas mileage is equivalent to the previously owned VW Jetta diesel.
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Old 04-30-2018, 11:15 PM   #16
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Roadtrek Adventuous RS1 wrote "Finally, it's all about enjoying your rig..... So.... enjoy....."

Absolutely! Whether it is a tent, trailer, A, B, C or just sleeping in the backseat of your SUV or car...........that is what it is all about: enjoyment.

Paul
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:01 AM   #17
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https://www.mercedeshoffman.com/abou...inter-history/

Since 2010 Mercedes Benz is again exclusively selling the Sprinter...no more affiliated with Dodge..

Whether it's a Dodge or Mercedes.... there's a lot of history to the commercial vehicle market and the Sprinter is no exception... it's certainly one of the roomiest vehicles out there for conversions.

The diesel application in the vehicle for an 11,000 plus, one ton truck is really amazing.
I tell people to purchase one used... it's crazy to get one new... solid base engine....
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:37 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1 View Post
https://www.mercedeshoffman.com/abou...inter-history/

Since 2010 Mercedes Benz is again exclusively selling the Sprinter...no more affiliated with Dodge..

Whether it's a Dodge or Mercedes.... there's a lot of history to the commercial vehicle market and the Sprinter is no exception... it's certainly one of the roomiest vehicles out there for conversions.

The diesel application in the vehicle for an 11,000 plus, one ton truck is really amazing.
I tell people to purchase one used... it's crazy to get one new... solid base engine....
They originally did that to get away from the Luxury connotation associated with MB. Not a problem in Europe and elsewhere as they make Vans and Heavy Trucks badged as MB( No MB heavy trucks in the US as Freightliner is their Heavy Truck division. It uses MB. diesels rebadged as Detroit Diesels!, but simplified as huge horsepower 650-73Ohp not required for US fleet trucks)
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Old 05-01-2018, 09:49 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roadtrek Adventuous RS1 View Post
https://www.mercedeshoffman.com/abou...inter-history/

Since 2010 Mercedes Benz is again exclusively selling the Sprinter...no more affiliated with Dodge..

Whether it's a Dodge or Mercedes.... there's a lot of history to the commercial vehicle market and the Sprinter is no exception... it's certainly one of the roomiest vehicles out there for conversions.

The diesel application in the vehicle for an 11,000 plus, one ton truck is really amazing.
I tell people to purchase one used... it's crazy to get one new... solid base engine....
Even more amazing with if you are referring too the Cab Chassis version.
IVECO Fiat’s Truck Division has the Daily. Payloads range from 3,500lb too 9,000lb. At its 9000lb zenith it has a 15,400lb GVWR and a 23,750lb GCVWR.
It is used in Europe as the basis for heavy Class C’s and the Euro “liner”Class A
Italian engine is used in the Mitsubishi Fuso Truck, which is quite unusual
IVECO Daily is used in many ways. As a extreme Off Road 4x4 it has a 5000lb payload and can also tow 7,700lb
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Old 05-01-2018, 12:59 PM   #20
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.

I believe diesel will not die.

It is the emission control method that will die -- the DEF, DPF, cat, etc.,

There's gotta be a better way.
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