Lithium/Alternator/Inverter Package from Xantrex

[kite_rider]

Originally Posted by booster

If they take care of them like they do the other types of batteries, they won't do anything. Lots of new units have batteries that are already in need of replacement because of dealer negligence. Ours were on our new Roadtrek in 2008 and neither the dealer, Roadtrek, or Exide would replace them, so we had to.

+1 on that!! I haven't spent a lot of time buying RV's, but in my few visits to RV showrooms I've been appalled at the way they take care of the batteries. I went all the way to the Pomona RV show this fall to check out the new Winnebago Revel and was shocked to see that they had drained the three large AGM batteries down to 9V!! This is while the vehicle was sitting out in direct SoCal sunlight (it has 200W of solar). I can only guess that they left the inverter on and along with several accessories for several nights. When we pointed this out to the salesman, he said; 'Oh, I guess we better start the truck.' Then he idled it for about 10 minutes before shutting it off again...

The battery on our new Carado Axion had also been abused before I took possession of it from the dealer. After hours of charge, the voltage quickly drop to about 12.3V and then drops to sub 12V after a relatively short time with a minimal load on it (LED lighting, water pump, etc.). It is supposed to have 220Ah of capacity.

I was told the battery has a 1 year warranty and I plan to put in a claim on this. Any suggestions on the most effective way of doing this? I'm assuming the dingbat dealer will tell me that the battery is OK since the LED lights still come on..

[nebulight]

Originally Posted by kite_rider

What are some of the new BMS features?

It's programmable so I can adjust the desired per cell voltage for disconnects of both load and charge independently. Currently my BMS shuts down both load and charge if there is a fault. example overcharge will shutdown both the charger and the loads. Since this wasn't designed for off grid, an electric car doesn't charge and discharge at the same time so it worked for that applications.

The balancing of the cells is an active balance which means it doesn't passively balance the cells which wastes energy as heat.

It has an LCD screen to monitor the cells as well as SOC of the battery pack. It also monitors usage in amps and watts.

Better temp control. Overtemp will shut off both charge and discharge. Undertemp will shut off just the charger.

The unit I'm looking at is a Chargery BMS16T. There is another one from the EU somewhere called REC-BMS Active 12v. It has all the same features but it also has the ability fire an external relay that's programmable which would be nice to turn on the heating pads at 0F. However that unit is a lot more expensive so I don't think I'll be going that route unless I could get a deal on it.

Originally Posted by kite_rider

So you took out your batteries (and disassembled the bus bars too it seems) to test the BMS or because it was cold outside? Even though I *love* Lithium batteries, storing them in well below freezing temps is a must for me.

I took them out because it's getting COLD! Storing them below freezing is fine. Storing them at -4F can damage them and with this cold snap we are having on the east coast, I'm not using the van at the moment so there is no harm to bring them inside. The previous owner of my van installed AC heating pads but they were very high current (20 amps) that turned on at 40F so they would be running 24/7. With 400ah, I'd have the batteries dead in 16 hours. I don't have access to shore power where I have my van as it's in a parking lot at my condo so I'm going to install DC heating pads that are lower wattage and have them turn on only when needed (0F). They will be 90w total which should draw 7 amps. And since they can turn on only when needed (night most likely in my area with this cold snap), I can run them for 45 hours. If we are going to have an extended period of cold, I'm going to have to find a place to connect to shore.

And since they are out, they will be out until I can figure out which BMS I'd like to get and test before I reinstall them in the van.

[wincrasher]

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive if my points have been covered.

I have the Lithionics 600AH unit. It's a tank and has been reliable for me for a year now. I got a sweetheart deal on it - for $7000. Extrapolating the price of the rest of the components, the $21k does not sound out of line - especially considering with the markup Coachmen is giving, you are only going to pay 75% of that.

One thing I've noticed is that the Firefly control system is Silverleaf. I would assume the control system has thermal protection. The battery is inside the heated area and the BMS is in an outboard module and networked with the rest of the system. One thing I'm not sure about on this system is the 2nd alternator is mounted low similar to what we've seen on the Promasters - probably better cooling, but maybe exposed to debris and slush.

One oddity is that the van is offered as a Li3 model for $160,500 MSRP, but also as an option on the base van for +$21k. That leaves you paying $3k more for it in the package, so something doesn't quite make sense.

Overall though, if you can get this van for $135k as a real price, it's a pretty compelling offering with this kind of tech, and I would assume, far more reliable than the Roadtrek offering.

Considering the apparent quality of the rest of the build, and the availability of nice options like the driver's packages and 4WD, I'd seriously consider buying one of these.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by kite_rider

+1 on that!! I haven't spent a lot of time buying RV's, but in my few visits to RV showrooms I've been appalled at the way they take care of the batteries. I went all the way to the Pomona RV show this fall to check out the new Winnebago Revel and was shocked to see that they had drained the three large AGM batteries down to 9V!! This is while the vehicle was sitting out in direct SoCal sunlight (it has 200W of solar). I can only guess that they left the inverter on and along with several accessories for several nights. When we pointed this out to the salesman, he said; 'Oh, I guess we better start the truck.' Then he idled it for about 10 minutes before shutting it off again...

The battery on our new Carado Axion had also been abused before I took possession of it from the dealer. After hours of charge, the voltage quickly drop to about 12.3V and then drops to sub 12V after a relatively short time with a minimal load on it (LED lighting, water pump, etc.). It is supposed to have 220Ah of capacity.

I was told the battery has a 1 year warranty and I plan to put in a claim on this. Any suggestions on the most effective way of doing this? I'm assuming the dingbat dealer will tell me that the battery is OK since the LED lights still come on..

FWIW, the Lithionics battery has a hard switch on it so that you can shut it down on the battery itself - the ultimate in isolation.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I haven't read this entire thread, so forgive if my points have been covered.

I have the Lithionics 600AH unit. It's a tank and has been reliable for me for a year now. I got a sweetheart deal on it - for $7000. Extrapolating the price of the rest of the components, the $21k does not sound out of line - especially considering with the markup Coachmen is giving, you are only going to pay 75% of that.

One thing I've noticed is that the Firefly control system is Silverleaf. I would assume the control system has thermal protection. The battery is inside the heated area and the BMS is in an outboard module and networked with the rest of the system. One thing I'm not sure about on this system is the 2nd alternator is mounted low similar to what we've seen on the Promasters - probably better cooling, but maybe exposed to debris and slush.

One oddity is that the van is offered as a Li3 model for $160,500 MSRP, but also as an option on the base van for +$21k. That leaves you paying $3k more for it in the package, so something doesn't quite make sense.

Overall though, if you can get this van for $135k as a real price, it's a pretty compelling offering with this kind of tech, and I would assume, far more reliable than the Roadtrek offering.

Considering the apparent quality of the rest of the build, and the availability of nice options like the driver's packages and 4WD, I'd seriously consider buying one of these.

The 21k cost for the Li3 option needs clarification. The option cost is accurate but selecting this option results in the deletion of the Onan generator, a 2kw Xantrex converter, the 8D 325 ah AGM and an autostart module. Since there is no credit allocasted for these deletions, the real world MSRP premium for the Li3 option is closer to 25-26k.

Once the intial supply and demand ratio settles down, at 135k you should be able to buy it fully loaded with 4WD which is unquestionably good value. But considering the imminent arrival of a new Sprinter design that may well be more RV friendly, perhaps it's worth waiting for the new Sprinter design.

IMO, we are looking at the tip of the iceberg. Winnebago was part of the group that implemented the original lithium conversion for the Fit RV. I wouldn't be surprised to see the arrival of similar systems offered by mid level upfitters along with innovations for long overdue four-season operation.

[nebulight]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

IMO, we are looking at the tip of the iceberg. Winnebago was part of the group that implemented the original lithium conversion for the Fit RV. I wouldn't be surprised to see the arrival of similar systems offered by mid level upfitters along with innovations for long overdue four-season operation.

The Fit RV did the work themselves, it just happened to be inside a winnebago. As for Winnebago bringing this tech to their vans, I highly doubt it as it's a different market. Maybe the Era, but not the Travato. The travato is flying off the shelves as is so I don't really see them doing this any time soon.

[wincrasher]

I believe Xantrex consulted a bit with James, but he did most of the work. If anything, WGO was an interested spectator in all that.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

I believe Xantrex consulted a bit with James, but he did most of the work. If anything, WGO was an interested spectator in all that.

Xantrex consulted a bit?? LOL! Let's give credit where credit is due. Xantrex was totally involved in the project and considering the subsequent adoption of a similar system by Coachmen, the positive payoff for Xantrex was probably completely beyond their expectations. More power to 'em.


Extract from the Fit RV Blog:


"System Design

Given my aforementioned apathy toward battery capacity and charging system discussion, it won’t come as a surprise that I let someone else design the system for me. (I’m an aerospace engineer – not electrical!) In this case, it was the good folks at Xantrex (a division of Schneider Electric) who did the heavy lifting on the design side. I can’t say enough good things about the system they’ve put together.

They took the lead in contacting suppliers of components that were already on the market and working with them to gather information, size components, adjust parameters, work out communication protocols, and basically make sure everything would work together as a system when it was all said and done. Though the components were all sourced from different vendors, they’ve so far worked together flawlessly. All they’re missing is a catchy name. So just pick one word from the first column and one word from the second, add them together, and let’s pretend that’s the name. (I’m going with “Amp-Camp”!) RV Name Picker
If this sounds like your marketing department… I’m really sorry.

But the folks at Xantrex didn’t stop at just designing the system and sending me a parts list. They actually showed up at FitRV HQ and helped me install and remove stuff. This was a good thing. Since the amounts of stored electricity we’re talking about can be potentially harmful, I was glad to have the assistance and extra eyes for safety."

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by nebulight

The Fit RV did the work themselves, it just happened to be inside a winnebago. As for Winnebago bringing this tech to their vans, I highly doubt it as it's a different market. Maybe the Era, but not the Travato. The travato is flying off the shelves as is so I don't really see them doing this any time soon.

Maybe today, but for tomorrow I disagree. There are negative trade offs for the limited cubic of a class B but considering the high price per running foot for for an upfitted van, I predict that the one thing that future owners will demand is energy capacity mostly independent of shore power, as a leading advantage of a B is the ability to avoid overnight stays at overpriced RV campsites.

If WGO isn't promoting a lithium/GU system within 3 years, let me know and I'll send 100 bucks to the charity of your choice.

[nebulight]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Maybe today, but for tomorrow I disagree. There are negative trade offs for the limited cubic of a class B but considering the high price per running foot for for an upfitted van, I predict that the one thing that future owners will demand is energy capacity mostly independent of shore power, as a leading advantage of a B is the ability to avoid overnight stays at overpriced RV campsites.

If WGO isn't promoting a lithium/GU system within 3 years, let me know and I'll send 100 bucks to the charity of your choice.

Maybe, but winnebago made a test revel last year with lithium but canned it in favor of 300ah of AGMs. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still think Winnebago is going to play it safe for a while longer. Hopefully the Li3 sells well and Winnebago might opt for something similar or better yet the same thing as Xantrex and Lithionics make good stuff.

Oh, and calendar marked:

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by nebulight

Maybe, but winnebago made a test revel last year with lithium but canned it in favor of 300ah of AGMs. Maybe I'm wrong, but I still think Winnebago is going to play it safe for a while longer. Hopefully the Li3 sells well and Winnebago might opt for something similar or better yet the same thing as Xantrex and Lithionics make good stuff.

Oh, and calendar marked:

Oh, I couldn't agree more that WGO will play it safe; unless and until it looks like they are losing market share. Their mommas didn't raise no fools! But IMO, a 59K with a setup similar to the Li3 could raise a lot of hell in this market.

Yep, mark your calandar. I'll put my money where my mouth is,

[booster]

I think there may be subtle things going on in the background and past with a lot of these things.

The cheap and easy lithium setup for an OEM is to just use drop in lithium batteries from Smartbattery or someone else. ARV started with this idea and changed after a short time. I think Roadtrek did the same before going off on their own disastrous path. Pleasure-way is using what appear to be drop in batteries and at least in the beginning left mostly stock electronics and charging. Others are also trying the same, I think. It is very possible they will also learn that it isn't a great way to go for the masses.

My guess is that most everyone is going to find out they don't get good, reliable, robust, control of the batteries and multiple charging sources from drop in lithiums, and they will gravitate quickly to the Xantrex style systems, of which there will soon be more brands of.

That brings it back full circle to designing your own, like the next generation of ARV or Roadtrek (although ARV used stock components and Roadtrek did their own). But it even appears that may not be getting the results and costs that the OEMs desire, as now you see the Xantrex complete setups showing up, the Volta being tested at ARV, and fully integrated Victron setups being installed in the aftermarket by folks like AMsolar.

This all leads me to believe that lithium will not become as reliable and usable as the older systems until they are complete packages like the three mentioned above. It also means they will be relatively complex within themselves to do all the things that lithium batteries need. OEMs wouldn't be looking at the extra cost of these systems unless they feel they are a real necessity, IMO. Winnebago may just have looked at the cost vs value of the all new systems and decided to wait for the bugs to be out and the costs to come down, so it is an easy and quick changeover.

Of course it is always possible that there will be some wonderful new technology shows up before lithium is even fully implemented. That is what is happening with lithium starting in while AGM is still displacing Wet cells.

A poster on another forum has mentioned that the lithium batteries in their 2 year old Roadtrek have already been replaced 4 times.

[avanti]

As I see it, the question revolves almost completely around air conditioning. If the market comes to demand all-night unplugged A/C, then lithium is required. If not, there is really little point. Four Group 31 AGM batteries will give you well over 400Ah. This is more than enough for a compressor fridge, plenty of microwave use, hair dryers, and all the coffee you can drink. All of this can be done in an inexpensive, conservative, well-proven, low-tech, easy to understand, low-maintenance way. If the typical B-van owner tends toward touring rather than stationary camping, then a good second alternator will keep all of this going indefinitely.

Will the market come to make such a demand? I don't know. But if not, it seems likely that lithium systems will remain niche products.

[wincrasher]

There is definately a demand for battery powered air conditioning. Mostly driven by people's concerns for their pets - people are generally pet crazy and will spend the money for it.

But the other issue is weight and space for big batteries. You just hit the limits on what you can stuff in a van. 4 Group 31's is about it on most of them, and we see no Promasters or Transits with that many. There is just no room for them.

Coachmen's placement of their big lithium battery came at the expense of having a water tank underneath the van. Most B's now have that inside the van. Putting the battery under the van adds complication and cost. Xantrex would have to design a thermal enclosure that could only be installed in one location to make this package work, which would have limiting effects on floorplans.

This isn't really rocket science as some would imply. Roadtrek's woes are mostly from the Volt-Start autostarting and their ill-conceived BMS system. I haven't read that Coachmen is attempting at all to integrate an autostarting system, but they do have a robust BMS and a sophisticated, yet off-the shelf control & monitoring system. It looks to me to be a nice middle-ground design.

My guess is that the most difficult part of their system design is in the 2nd alternator installation and controlling the charging of the battery with it engaged. That probably took the heaviest of the lifting. The rest is not all that difficult, and the battery system is all Lithionics, so they had very little to do on that end other than selecting the size.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

Oh, I couldn't agree more that WGO will play it safe; unless and until it looks like they are losing market share. Their mommas didn't raise no fools! But IMO, a 59K with a setup similar to the Li3 could raise a lot of hell in this market.

Yep, mark your calandar. I'll put my money where my mouth is,

I don't think that Revel actually had a lithium battery installed in it. WGO was interested in the Xantrex system, but took a pass. Whether Xantrex was working with Coachmen at the same time, or it came after I don't know.

WGO is touting "durability" and "4 season" in their marketing of the Revel. It is pretty much a bulletproof offering and I suspect will have a very low warranty record considering there is no new tech in it. It's probably a smart approach for that kind of product.

I would suspect, if WGO were to ever go with something like this Xantrex package, it will be in their Era line, or a newly created "luxury" line. It would be a 3rd party package like this, and not home grown, and it will be after it's been on the market for a few years first so they get a sense of the durability. There really isn't much benefit in being first, or proprietary, unless you consider $$ losses a benefit. There is still is plenty of runway of boomer retirements out there, so time isn't all that critical.

[GeorgeRa]

I tend to be an early adaptor of new technologies, but only if justifies my needs. I moved early to digital photography but for travelling got sick and tired of super heavy Nikon DSLRs, they are still heavier than old Hasselblads. So, I switched very early to the mirrorless M4/3 system and this was a good and justified move for me.

Regarding Li batteries, I just can sway myself to even think about spending this type of money for our van camping. Bringing batteries home during frigid days - are these batteries working for owners or owners are working for them. We don’t have yet long enough market experience to judge their success but it looks like a typical new technology up and down rocky road. Will they last, will Xantrex copy Apple in the throttling scheme, and why. From my own conversion experience and EU market prices good Camper Vans should be somewhere between $75 to 100K, to spent 25-30% in Li, just not me.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Coachmen's placement of their big lithium battery came at the expense of having a water tank underneath the van. Most B's now have that inside the van. Putting the battery under the van adds complication and cost. Xantrex would have to design a thermal enclosure that could only be installed in one location to make this package work, which would have limiting effects on floorplans.

I don't get this. The Galleria battery is under the driver side rear power seat. Why does this require displacing the water tank, which while sometimes located under the rear fore and aft seats, AFAIK is never located under the transverse rear power seat? What leads you to your conclusion that most vans locate their water tanks in the coach interior?

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

I don't get this. The Galleria battery is under the driver side rear power seat. Why does this require displacing the water tank, which while sometimes located under the rear fore and aft seats, AFAIK is never located under the transverse rear power seat? What leads you to your conclusion that most vans locate their water tanks in the coach interior?

My water tank is under the floor behind the passenger seat. It is a 40 gallon tank which I believe may be the largest tank put in a B. Batteries are under the floor as well and they are an 800ah lithium ion assembly.

I believe water tanks were seldom located in the interior until Promasters became vogue. They have a lower floor thus less under floor space. Placing batteries and water tanks inside just takes up valuable space in an already limited B, IMO. Water tanks can be heated outside (like mine) and lithium batteries can be heated outside (like mine). To put them inside implies you have to maintain cabin temperature 24/7 which is extremely inefficient especially when unattended or in cold storage. You have to be a very hardy soul if you can camp in temperatures that can remotely damage lithium batteries.

[wincrasher]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

I don't get this. The Galleria battery is under the driver side rear power seat. Why does this require displacing the water tank, which while sometimes located under the rear fore and aft seats, AFAIK is never located under the transverse rear power seat? What leads you to your conclusion that most vans locate their water tanks in the coach interior?

If you look at new vans, virtually all of them are putting the water tank in the heated space. It's the cheapest and probably most effective way to keep the water system from freezing up. Granted there are exceptions. Granted you can add heaters, insulate and trace lines. That comes at a cost of course, as well as complication of the build.

My point is that if a 3rd party vendor like Xantrex is going to supply a power system, then it's going to have to be a standard design. A one size fits all kind of proposition. If they were to include a weather proof container for the batteries, not only would that increases costs, but it would require a standard size module. That would most likely preclude customizing where it would go in the layout.

Some might argue that you could make a module the same size as an Onan generator and it could fit where people would normally fit one. True, I guess, they could do that. So tell me how many alternate locations for Onan generators you see on today's vans? I'd say none - they are all underneath, behind the rear axle, without exception. Look at the compromises that result from this placement - things like no spare tires, placement of waste tanks (and the ill conceived shower/grey water pump in the Travato G).

On the Galleria, there is virtually no space to put the water tank inside the van. The Truma system takes up alot of space as does the battery and inverter, along with the electrical distribution panel. They might have freed up space using a deisel heater/water heater system and mounted it under the van. Of course that choice is much more costly and complicated than a Truma Combi, and the resulting freed up space might not have lead to the inclusion of a very large water tank. I would suspect that, if they had used traditional batteries, that the truma would have gone where the Lithionics package is, and the water tank would have gone under the kitchen cabinet where the Truma now resides.

But it's not the end of the world to have the tank and lines under the van. You simply need to insulate them and provide a heating option. That's not really as involved technically as heating a battery module. Heat tape and heat pads for tanks have been around for decades. I would have a dealer install this without alot of concern.

[BBQ]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

If you look at new vans, virtually all of them are putting the water tank in the heated space. ....

You see that in the ProMaster because the floor is low; there is not much space below the floor.