Lithium/Alternator/Inverter Package from Xantrex

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

If you look at new vans, virtually all of them are putting the water tank in the heated space. It's the cheapest and probably most effective way to keep the water system from freezing up. Granted there are exceptions. Granted you can add heaters, insulate and trace lines. That comes at a cost of course, as well as complication of the build.

My point is that if a 3rd party vendor like Xantrex is going to supply a power system, then it's going to have to be a standard design. A one size fits all kind of proposition. If they were to include a weather proof container for the batteries, not only would that increases costs, but it would require a standard size module. That would most likely preclude customizing where it would go in the layout.

Some might argue that you could make a module the same size as an Onan generator and it could fit where people would normally fit one. True, I guess, they could do that. So tell me how many alternate locations for Onan generators you see on today's vans? I'd say none - they are all underneath, behind the rear axle, without exception. Look at the compromises that result from this placement - things like no spare tires, placement of waste tanks (and the ill conceived shower/grey water pump in the Travato G).

On the Galleria, there is virtually no space to put the water tank inside the van. The Truma system takes up alot of space as does the battery and inverter, along with the electrical distribution panel. They might have freed up space using a deisel heater/water heater system and mounted it under the van. Of course that choice is much more costly and complicated than a Truma Combi, and the resulting freed up space might not have lead to the inclusion of a very large water tank. I would suspect that, if they had used traditional batteries, that the truma would have gone where the Lithionics package is, and the water tank would have gone under the kitchen cabinet where the Truma now resides.

But it's not the end of the world to have the tank and lines under the van. You simply need to insulate them and provide a heating option. That's not really as involved technically as heating a battery module. Heat tape and heat pads for tanks have been around for decades. I would have a dealer install this without alot of concern.

Excellent analysis. Thank you!

IMO, they should have used diesel for heat and hot water in the Galleria. While it's a more expensive system than the Truma, this cost increase would be offset by being able to eliminate propane entirely plus facilitating four season plumbing capability.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by wincrasher

Roadtrek's woes are mostly from the Volt-Start autostarting and their ill-conceived BMS system. I haven't read that Coachmen is attempting at all to integrate an autostarting system, but they do have a robust BMS and a sophisticated, yet off-the shelf control & monitoring system. It looks to me to be a nice middle-ground design.

Coachmen does offer autostart as an option on the AGM equipped Galleria but it isn't available with the lithium Li3 option. The Li3 monitoring system is in transition. It started with a Xantrex read only Link Pro but has recently been changed to a programmable Xantrex Master Disconnect display.

[Olbie]

For those inclined to do lithium battery upgrades we have just begun a 600 amp lithium upgrade with a 3000 watt Xantrex inverter to our 2015 Pleasure-Way Plateau XLMB. We were inspired by the post on Fitrv https://www.thefitrv.com/.../our-generator-free-rv.../, where James and Stephanie did a 400amp lithium/Xantrex upgrade.

We are working directly with Lithionics and have found them to be incredibly helpful with their engineering advice, and personal service... Lithionics have partnered with Xantrex and Nations Alternator to ensure that everything talks correctly to each other, and they are even building the system in their own shop and setting it up with plug and play wiring so that installation and charging parameters will be completed in their shop making my install much easier than I thought it would be. We are also adding a Nations auxiliary alternator that Lithioncs is also programming to provide correct lithium charging parameters.

The system that Lithionics is selling is virtually the same as what is installed in the Coachman Galeria.

We too are on a quest to go generator/shore power free...

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Olbie

For those inclined to do lithium battery upgrades we have just begun a 600 amp lithium upgrade with a 3000 watt Xantrex inverter to our 2015 Pleasure-Way Plateau XLMB. We were inspired by the post on Fitrv https://www.thefitrv.com/.../our-generator-free-rv.../, where James and Stephanie did a 400amp lithium/Xantrex upgrade.

We are working directly with Lithionics and have found them to be incredibly helpful with their engineering advice, and personal service... Lithionics have partnered with Xantrex and Nations Alternator to ensure that everything talks correctly to each other, and they are even building the system in their own shop and setting it up with plug and play wiring so that installation and charging parameters will be completed in their shop making my install much easier than I thought it would be. We are also adding a Nations auxiliary alternator that Lithioncs is also programming to provide correct lithium charging parameters.

The system that Lithionics is selling is virtually the same as what is installed in the Coachman Galeria.

We too are on a quest to go generator/shore power free...

Way to go!

What do you estimate the bottom line cost for this project will be?

What module are you going to use for the system control panel with the Xantrex inverter?

[Olbie]

The cost of the Nations 280 amp Sprinter alternator kit is around $1,600 and the 600 amp battery, BMS, Xantrex sw 3012, controllers gauges and wiring is around $11,500. Of course this does not include my labor to install.

We are using the Xantrex SCP system control panel and for the battery we are using Lithionics SOC round display for monitoring the battery state of charge.

I had spent quite a bit of time researching what I wanted and then when I spoke with Phil at Lithionics he agreed with what I was doing but suggested a several changes to my plan to make is what he called the ultimate off grid rv battery system.

Lithionics has really proven to be invaluable in this process. They are having me spec the lengths of all needed cables and setting it up as plug and play. They are going to set it all up in their shop to test and calibrate before its shipped to me.

We are also using the Victron MPPT controller for the solar.

Here is a great video of the Lithionics product.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=298vB5Ny2GY

[booster]

It will be very interesting to hear how it all works together, and if you will be able to tell how it is controlled, as that is normally the biggest factor. Things like cutoff points for the engine generator, shutting off solar charging, etc, that need battery reference to work without spikes, etc.

What did they say about heaters, and temperature stuff, that we constantly wonder about?

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Olbie

The cost of the Nations 280 amp Sprinter alternator kit is around $1,600 and the 600 amp battery, BMS, Xantrex sw 3012, controllers gauges and wiring is around $11,500. Of course this does not include my labor to install.

We are using the Xantrex SCP system control panel and for the battery we are using Lithionics SOC round display for monitoring the battery state of charge.

I had spent quite a bit of time researching what I wanted and then when I spoke with Phil at Lithionics he agreed with what I was doing but suggested a several changes to my plan to make is what he called the ultimate off grid rv battery system.

Lithionics has really proven to be invaluable in this process. They are having me spec the lengths of all needed cables and setting it up as plug and play. They are going to set it all up in their shop to test and calibrate before its shipped to me.

We are also using the Victron MPPT controller for the solar.

It's not inexpensive but even with the labor component, you are still saving a substantial amount compared to what a coach builder will charge for a similar configuration.

The Nations alternator is pretty much bullet proof. There have been occasional failures of the associated Balmar regulator and having a spare regulator (which is plug in and play) is chump change considering the total cost of the project. In any event, be sure to get the program documentation for the regulator that Lithionics is providing. When you do the install, ensure that the regulator is positioned so that you can view the LED readouts without having to subsequently visit a chiropractor.

At this point, there are two ways to implement the system control of the Xantrex inverter. One way uses their standard SCP which requires CAT5 hard wiring. The other way uses an inverter Combox unit that wirelessly transmits and receives data to an Android tablet. You can do either or both and if it was my project, I would do both.

[Olbie]

This installation is not inexpensive, but it is much less expensive than the depreciation costs of trading our Pleasureway in on a new one... Also the Galleria is really the only B class that has the lithium system that we like, however but to us it comes up short on storage and decent dry bath.

We think its a good investment as in comparison to what is currently available on the market.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Olbie

Also the Galleria is really the only B class that has the lithium system that we like, however but to us it comes up short on storage and decent dry bath.

I don't think this is a Galleria issue as much as a Class B reality that acknowledges the laws of physics, particularly with the narrow confines of the Sprinter platform. AFAIK, the only class B that ever had a dry bath was built by LTV and even that model had to include a slide out to make that happen.

[Olbie]

Originally Posted by cruising7388

I don't think this is a Galleria issue as much as a Class B reality that acknowledges the laws of physics, particularly with the narrow confines of the Sprinter platform. AFAIK, the only class B that ever had a dry bath was built by LTV and even that model had to include a slide out to make that happen.

Ours has a large dry bath with Corian Shower, but technically it is a B+.

Lithionics make a really large group of batteries of different physical sizes and shapes. We had plenty of room for 600amps.

[mtmdatlanta]

Somewhat off of the topic, there are currently 2 class Bs with a dry bath. Winnebago makes the ERA 170M, which has a slide with a Murphy bed and a large rear bath with a 24 by 31 inch shower. No advanced electronics, though, and no provision for heated tanks of any sort. It is built on the extended MB Sprinter 3500 van, as is the Coach House Arriva. This class B has a rear bath with a 24 by 24 shower and 2 twin beds. It does seem to offer auto-start, but no Lithiums or underhood generator, and limited solar. It does offer the option of heated tanks, though.

Previously, Winnebago made the ERA 170C, which was more of an LTV Free Sprit SS clone with a slide and rear bath, but again on the longer platform than the LTV. The ERA M is considerably modified from this design.

[GeorgeRa]

$11.5K in components which is over 50% of parts in my total conversion, what is wrong with me.

[Phoebe3]

Lithiums offer a lot of convenience and sometimes you really need what they offer, but the math just didn't work for us. We have two 105 ah wet cells that you can buy for $120 each. For the cost of a Lithium setup, I calculate that I could run those two batteries into the ground and replace them every year for 45 years!

[nebulight]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

Lithiums offer a lot of convenience and sometimes you really need what they offer, but the math just didn't work for us. We have two 105 ah wet cells that you can buy for $120 each. For the cost of a Lithium setup, I calculate that I could run those two batteries into the ground and replace them every year for 45 years!

Different markets. You aren't going to be running any high current appliances like an AC or induction cooktop off those wet cells.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by nebulight

Different markets. You aren't going to be running any high current appliances like an AC or induction cooktop off those wet cells.

Not really different markets. I started out with two large AGMs, and with a large inverter I had no trouble with the microwave or short periods of AC. When I decided to upgrade, it was a close call between Li and more AGM. I ended up going with the latter (total of 440Ah of AGM), and I don't regret it. The tradeoffs are well-documented and I made my choice. But other than the weather-related inconveniences of Lithium, all of the tradeoffs were quantitative, not qualitative. I have GVWR and space to spare, so I could add even more AGM if I though I needed it, which I don't. As Phoebe3 points out, I would be way ahead financially as well as convenience-wise.

[booster]

Originally Posted by GeorgeRa

$11.5K in components which is over 50% of parts in my total conversion, what is wrong with me.

And that was just the batteries and peripherals. You still needed the engine generator added in at $1600.

Much of the cost of a large system is the same between AGM and lithium, or very close to the same. Some may be different parts, but similar.

IIRC, we have a bit over $3000 in the chargers, controls, etc.

Our 440ah of AGM were $1200.

I would assume the rest of the difference is in the extra cost of the lithium over AGM.

We did the same type of comparison as Avanti did and came to very similar conclusions, although we don't have a lot of more space in our Chevy Roadtrek 190 as he does. Of course, when we did our conversion the integrated systems for lithium were not available and the component parts weren't very compatible with each other, so that was also a factor. Having a drop in like the Xantrex is surely worth extra cost, the question just becomes how much extra, especially if the controls are well done (not like Roadtrek's)

[GeorgeRa]

Originally Posted by booster

And that was just the batteries and peripherals. You still needed the engine generator added in at $1600.

Much of the cost of a large system is the same between AGM and lithium, or very close to the same. Some may be different parts, but similar.

IIRC, we have a bit over $3000 in the chargers, controls, etc.

Our 440ah of AGM were $1200.

I would assume the rest of the difference is in the extra cost of the lithium over AGM.

We did the same type of comparison as Avanti did and came to very similar conclusions, although we don't have a lot of more space in our Chevy Roadtrek 190 as he does. Of course, when we did our conversion the integrated systems for lithium were not available and the component parts weren't very compatible with each other, so that was also a factor. Having a drop in like the Xantrex is surely worth extra cost, the question just becomes how much extra, especially if the controls are well done (not like Roadtrek's)

Exactly.

I think Lithium batteries for RVs are still in a very early adapters stage of technology life cycle, prices will continue to go down. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Techno...ion_life_cycle

As an example:
Nissan Leaf; $30K, 30kW Li batteries – 1 [$/kW] plus you get a car!
Nissan Leaf replacement battery; $8K, 30kW – 0.27 [$/kW]
RV Li battery bank posted earlier; $11.5K, 7.2kW – 1.60 [$/kW]

I tend to adapt to new technologies early if I see value, in this case I just don’t. It is a partial solution, it is not a fully electric RV with water and space heating, 4 season capabilities, it is primarily cooking and hair drying.

[Phoebe3]

Originally Posted by booster

...

Our 440ah of AGM were $1200.

...

Is there a reason you chose AGM over wet cell? If I understand, AGMs can be placed inside the coach without providing venting, but if you are planning on putting them outside, do you need them?

I looked at AGMs and they cost twice as much to buy, but I can't find anywhere that they last twice as long...am I missing some other benefit?

[booster]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

Is there a reason you chose AGM over wet cell? If I understand, AGMs can be placed inside the coach without providing venting, but if you are planning on putting them outside, do you need them?

I looked at AGMs and they cost twice as much to buy, but I can't find anywhere that they last twice as long...am I missing some other benefit?

We had wet cells for a long time, and they worked just fine for us, so that was definitely a consideration for us with no pre-bias.

Our new setup is outside the van, so it could be wet cells, but the batteries are hung underneath the van behind the rear axle, where the generator used to sit. This makes maintaining wet cell pretty much impossible, especially since the 4xGC2 batteries need to sit with the ends down to fit the best, and wet cells can't do that.

AGMs will also supply more amps deeper into the discharge curve than wet cells, so that lets us use the microwave with the batteries with the batteries more discharged. They also charge faster in the 20-80% range of charge than wet cells so we can recover a few days capacity quicker if we need to with the engine generator.

Durability of both AGM and wet cells would likely be similar, although I think the newest versions of the Trojan GC2 wet cells may have an advantage, as we ran a set for over 5 years and the tested as new when we sold them.

For two easily accessible batteries and no high amp requirements, wet cells are certainly a good choice.

But, if we are going to discuss this it probably belongs on another thread as this about the OP's lithium installation, not other options.

[cruising7388]

Originally Posted by Phoebe3

If I understand, AGMs can be placed inside the coach without providing venting, .....

If located in the interior of a vehicle, I believe AGMs require venting.