Roadtrek warranty change? - Page 5

gerrym51 · 09-02-2015, 12:10 AM

if the battery did charge then should;t the battery dissconect have enough power to turn on.

they say there is a programming error. t guess,

the BMS did it's job-i think-it shut down the battery for whatever reason.

the issue seems no way to recover. connecting any charging source seems
difficult.

i hope she gets this fixed and is confident. i was

avanti · 09-02-2015, 12:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by booster

The engine generator probably needs to see a battery in the system to activate and charge, so if the battery is locked out, it won't even try to charge.

I am actually struggling with this issue in my newly-installed second-alternator setup. Enabling the regulator with the engine running but with no battery connected can damage the diodes in the alternator. When I installed the system, I added a relay that prevents the regulator from activating if there is no battery voltage at the alternator output. This works fine most of the time, but I recently realized that if somebody were to turn off the main battery disconnect while the engine is running, the relay would stay energized from the alternator's output. Fixing this is subtle given the details of my setup.

I only mention this here as an example of the subtlety that the programmers of these setups are faced with.

mumkin · 09-02-2015, 12:32 AM

You all realize that I only barely know what I am talking about... but as I understand it, the battery "told" the BMS that it was too low, so the BMS shut everything down. That would be basically itself, the solar, and the inverter since they all draw a bit of power... right? Once the inverter is off, all charge systems become non functional so it won't take a charge from the generator or electrical plug in. (and the battery shut-off button and the inverter on/off in the front won't work either)

My interpretation of the software problem is that we need to stop the battery from lying about being too low...

Hopefully I'll hear in the morning of the final plan for the visit to Lake Region.

It was a shame that this happened on a Sunday and I had nowhere to go for help except social media.

booster · 09-02-2015, 12:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by avanti

I am actually struggling with this issue in my newly-installed second-alternator setup. Enabling the regulator with the engine running but with no battery connected can damage the diodes in the alternator. When I installed the system, I added a relay that prevents the regulator from activating if there is no battery voltage at the alternator output. This works fine most of the time, but I recently realized that if somebody were to turn off the main battery disconnect while the engine is running, the relay would stay energized from the alternator's output. Fixing this is subtle given the details of my setup.

I only mention this here as an example of the subtlety that the programmers of these setups are faced with.

This is very similar in function to a discussion we had some time ago about where an on/off switch should go for solar, and if it should be wired in before or after the main disconnect switch. Same type of problem with a huge spike if you have the panels connected to the controller but no battery in the system when you turn on the controller.

So many of the power equipment requires a battery for voltage reference and damping, it can get to be a mess if you have switches, relays, etc in the wrong places. The issue would also necessitate that the alternator be incapacitated before you could shut off a disconnect to the batteries, like I will be doing on our new system. Luckily for us, we will be using the van alternator for the coach charging, so it will always see the starting battery.

I am surprised that the Balmar doesn't have the ability to not turn on unless it sees voltage (maybe it does). If it does, you could use the coach battery as that signal instead of the engine.

avanti · 09-02-2015, 01:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by booster

I am surprised that the Balmar doesn't have the ability to not turn on unless it sees voltage (maybe it does). If it does, you could use the coach battery as that signal instead of the engine.

It does have an "enable" input that can be used for this purpose. But, I only want it on if BOTH the battery is connected and the engine is running. Otherwise it would represent an unwanted parasitic load. That is what the relay I mentioned does. My current problem stems from the fact that the main shutoff is between the alternator and the battery. I want to do it that way so I can tap the 3/0 wire in the middle to feed the coach loads. The issue only arises if the main shutoff is toggled off while the engine is running. I am going to have to add a second relay to prevent this from being possible. Haven't decided exactly how yet.

BTW: For the record, my solar controller is wired directly to the battery, bypassing the main shutoff, as is the Trik-L-Start.

gerrym51 · 09-02-2015, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mumkin

You all realize that I only barely know what I am talking about... but as I understand it, the battery "told" the BMS that it was too low, so the BMS shut everything down. That would be basically itself, the solar, and the inverter since they all draw a bit of power... right? Once the inverter is off, all charge systems become non functional so it won't take a charge from the generator or electrical plug in. (and the battery shut-off button and the inverter on/off in the front won't work either)

My interpretation of the software problem is that we need to stop the battery from lying about being too low...

Hopefully I'll hear in the morning of the final plan for the visit to Lake Region.

It was a shame that this happened on a Sunday and I had nowhere to go for help except social media.

the problem with this is the engine generator-extra alternator- charges the battery directly-at least on models that use agm. your running your engine for an hour should have charged your battery- and therefore given the battery switch solenoid power to come on.

what is it about a BMS that prevents this ? hopefully you will find out and find out if this is whats going to happen every time the BMS wants to protect the batteries for whatever reason

gerrym51 · 09-02-2015, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by booster

This is very similar in function to a discussion we had some time ago about where an on/off switch should go for solar, and if it should be wired in before or after the main disconnect switch. Same type of problem with a huge spike if you have the panels connected to the controller but no battery in the system when you turn on the controller.

So many of the power equipment requires a battery for voltage reference and damping, it can get to be a mess if you have switches, relays, etc in the wrong places. The issue would also necessitate that the alternator be incapacitated before you could shut off a disconnect to the batteries, like I will be doing on our new system. Luckily for us, we will be using the van alternator for the coach charging, so it will always see the starting battery.

I am surprised that the Balmar doesn't have the ability to not turn on unless it sees voltage (maybe it does). If it does, you could use the coach battery as that signal instead of the engine.

i don't think its the alternator(balmar) i think its the BMS itself-hopefully the replacement programming will enable the alternator to charge the battery or enable power to the battery switch

booster · 09-02-2015, 01:32 AM

You could might be able to use a one way ACR (separator) wired around the main disconnect switch. That way if the engine was running, the ACR would be closed from the charge voltage parallel to the switch. If someone opened the switch with the engine running it would still see the batteries until the engine was shut off, when the ACR would open.

avanti · 09-02-2015, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by booster

You could might be able to use a one way ACR (separator) wired around the main disconnect switch. That way if the engine was running, the ACR would be closed from the charge voltage parallel to the switch. If someone opened the switch with the engine running it would still see the batteries until the engine was shut off, when the ACR would open.

Hmm, not bad. Or, maybe just a dumb isolation relay across the switch controlled by the "engine running" signal. But then there would be no way to run the vehicle without automatically powering up the coach. My head is exploding thinking about how an ACR would behave under all permutations...

My current top candidates are:
A) adding a relay controlled by the signal from the BlueSea bistable relay that turns on a light on the button when activated. Have to test whether this works.
B) adding a relay controlled by "engine running" that disables the "relay off" button. This leaves a loophole because the BlueSea relay also has a manual disconnect feature--but that is all the way in the back so may be an acceptable risk.

These examples really are kind of sobering--with these high current systems there are most certainly potential software bugs that could cause serious physical damage and/or other dangerous situations.

booster · 09-02-2015, 02:25 AM

If you used the Blue Sea ACR, you can put the remote switch on it so you could override either off or on, which might be a nice feature. They are the bistable relays so the parasitic is negligable. With the bistable, it will stay in which ever position it is in whether the power is off or on, if you have it overridden and not in auto, which might be a benefit, or detriment.

gerrym51 · 09-02-2015, 05:33 PM

Mike wendlend told me to pass this along-

Mike Wendland hmmm Jerry. You could pose that question over to the the worrywarts over on the class b group. They seem to delight in apocalyptic issues that get blown all out of perspective

booster · 09-02-2015, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Mike wendlend told me to pass this along-

Mike Wendland hmmm Jerry. You could pose that question over to the the worrywarts over on the class b group. They seem to delight in apocalyptic issues that get blown all out of perspective

Said the guy that lives in the Lake Wobegon, where “all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average.”

Yep, praising the glory of Roadtrek and posting pix of your picnic table will make your RV always function perfectly

(in Lake Wobegon anyway)

What are we supposed to worrying about for you, that he didn't think was important? (At least we know they are aware of the real world)

gerrym51 · 09-02-2015, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by booster

Said the guy that lives in the Lake Wobegon, where “all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average.”

Yep, praising the glory of Roadtrek and posting pix of you dog will make your RV always function perfectly

(in Lake Wobegon anyway)

What are we supposed to worrying about for you, that he didn't think was important? (At least we know they are aware of the real world)

Mikes dog Tai died about a month ago-very sad.

I think the worry was in relation to Mumkins ecotrek issues

booster · 09-02-2015, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Mikes dog Tai died about a month ago-very sad.

Not intended in that sense, only the total atmosphere of the site. Any dog dying is hard on folks, to be sure. Post edited.

mumkin · 09-02-2015, 06:24 PM

Well, I was supposed to hear back from Roadtrek yesterday afternoon or first thing this morning about getting the update for the battery computer at the dealer. I can only assume that they have encountered more problems as it is now mid afternoon. I left a voicemail just before lunch - a couple hours ago, but no response as what is happening...

gerrym51 · 09-02-2015, 06:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mumkin

Well, I was supposed to hear back from Roadtrek yesterday afternoon or first thing this morning about getting the update for the battery computer at the dealer. I can only assume that they have encountered more problems as it is now mid afternoon. I left a voicemail just before lunch - a couple hours ago, but no response as what is happening...

good luck---