Advancing Alvar

[stanw909]

Did I read correctly on rv.net forum that your van just got delivered to Advanced?. We could not do without an awning here in SoCal but you know your habits best. So when will your van be done? How goes the sale of the old van? Any nibbles?

[Davydd]

The van arrived September 11 almost a month earlier than I had anticipated since it is a 2015 chassis. So we went out to Advanced RV to see it and to nail down all the final details which required sitting down with engineering and design staff to work out. We have some experimental things going on such as our beds so we mocked that up too to make sure things would work as expected.

Truth be told I've never liked the awning in having to be right adjacent to the B outdoors. Maybe that is why I never pushed much to open it up in the campground unless the sun was unbearable or it was drizzling rain. When they started mounting them sticking up on the new model Sprinters I liked them less. When we needed shade we put up a screen tent and we may also buy one of those free standing canopies without screens - the kind you see at art fairs and such. With a separate structure we could come and go easier and would help mark our occupancy.

Advanced RV is at full capacity. I think I mentioned their CPM (Critical Path Method) chart shows a 14 week production schedule and I believe there were four Bs waiting to start ahead of us. Right now it looks like early February. They just finalized how they were going to modularize and install their three different size lithium battery configurations in an under floor heated and insulated box. They completely redesigned their basement storage compartments in the back of the B in one central deep box and two flanking boxes that used to be where they put batteries. They hadn't even received the solar panels yet that we will install. They developed a new nerf bar type skirting that hides the utilities and has more outside storage as an option the the fiber glass skirts you can see on the current models. I only saw their first mock up of it but it to me will be more sporty looking and I think more rugged in scraping posts and trees. It is non-stop development and innovation with those guys and they have some other things in the works I may like or want.So I am in no rush until I feel the need to head out and that won't be until February.

The Great West Van Legend is still for sale. I haven't advertised it anywhere other than here and Sprinter-Forum.com. That is kind of like selling to the choir approach. I've got to expand the reach. There is no change of mind at this point. I made a non-refundable deposit on the Advanced RV.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by markopolo

600ah battery bank
480 ah useable battery bank and 450w solar combo

I had breakfast at a Cracker Barrel this morning. I noticed they had a complimentary fold out map of the USA showing all the Cracker Barrel locations and addresses. They also asterisked* all the restaurants that had RV overnight parking. With no need of hookups it might become a favorite overnight as I suspect they would be quieter than a Walmart or truck stop and provide a better opportunity for breakfast the next morning.

When I get home I'll rework my analysis with more accurate information I got from Advanced RV including the parasitic loss. But it looks as if just driving periodically, even less than we normally do, would mean never having to hookup if we didn't desire to.

[pattonsr]

Davydd,

I need some help in visualizing your battery box layout. The original layout was a central box for storage flanked by side battery boxes and a larger two battery box that was past the central storage box. I thought the central storage box came with the Sprinter but I may be wrong about that.

I think you are saying that there will be a larger central box for Lithium flanked by side storage boxes. If I have it right, are you still going to have room for the small portable propane tank which I think you were going to put in the left flanking box?

[Davydd]

Basement storage boxes are built by the B converter. They don't come with Sprinters. Advanced RV was installing discreet AGM batteries and some with the discreet lithium Smart batteries that were about the same size as AGM batteries in boxes that you could lift a floor lid and service them standing at the back of the B since they are right at the very back. I think I may have posted a picture of one in the past like that. These boxes are now storage boxes. The battery box is an insulated box that mounts under the floor just adjacent to the center storage box but there is no lid to get to it from the top. It would be just about where an Onan generator would go. There is no need to service the lithium batteries. There are no corrosion issues on the connections like a lead-acid battery. Maybe, in theory and hope, you might put it up on a lift and lower the box in 10 years to change batteries. The box, no matter what lithium battery configuration you choose will be big enough to install 800 ah and all the wiring no matter what configuration you choose will accommodate 800 ah. The batteries are not discreet batteries like that lithium Smart battery. They are built from individual cells. The configured battery cells are smaller than a similar assembly of AGM batteries. Technomadia.com goes into something similar that they are doing in that regard. The other plus is they don't intrude on inside storage space, nor are they scattered all over like partly under the hood and in the back end like some others have done to get that capacity. The Outback inverter seems like a monster to me. It sits behind the driver side wheel well and is completely inclosed in matching wood cabinetry but vented for cooling.

The center basement storage boxes are one center box of 30" L x 12" W x 14" D and the two flanking boxes are 10-3/4" L x 12" W x 11" D. You can put a lot of stuff in those boxes.

[Arlo]

Davydd,

It would be interesting to know the marginal cost of going from 400 ah to 600 ah, and from 600 ah to 800 with the ARV lithium cells.

[booster]

Originally Posted by markopolo

600ah battery bank
480 ah useable battery bank and 450w solar combo

I agree, that is a good combination of parts to do what he wants to be able to do.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by Arlo

Davydd,

It would be interesting to know the marginal cost of going from 400 ah to 600 ah, and from 600 ah to 800 with the ARV lithium cells.

Since we just made the decision to go to 600 ah I haven't got a proposal cost on it yet. I'll take a stab based on what little I know that it could be around $3,500. Keep in mind to get 480 usable amp hours with AGM batteries you would need 900 ah and these batteries should last 2-3 times longer.

[pattonsr]

Davydd,

You posted the link below which shows the 4 compartments in an older Advanced RV. Am I correct in assuming that the top compartment which has two batteries is now enlarged and accessed from below?

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k3...AdvancedRV.jpg

At that time you said the left storage box needed to be widened to hold a 9" by 12" 4.5 lb propane tank. You said the right storage box could not be widened since the tailpipe was in the way.

But I notice you said the flanking boxes are 11" D. But the center box is 14" D. Are you planning on putting the small propane tank in the center box?

[Davydd]

All the storage boxes have changed since that photo. Those batteries in that photo were the lithium Smart batteries. They are moving away from those. I also saw a regular body Sprinter being built where the batteries filled those boxes so there was no basement storage at all.

[tinman22]

Davydd, thanks for all this great information re your B conversion, especially for all of us who likewise may follow your path to Advanced RV. I have daydreamed about using available "motive flow", such as wind over a surface (in motion), and engine exhaust gases, to drive a generating system to obtain free electrical generation - but probably, the speed of a cruising B would not be enough to excite and maintain enough generation to make the effort worthwhile (but it is interesting, though). Question: will your B have the added-on rear suspension air bag system?; and if so, will that mod, or the new battery box location decrease road clearance (considering the Labrador Loop drive and a lot of time in the Maritimes.

[gerrym51]

Originally Posted by Davydd

All the storage boxes have changed since that photo. Those batteries in that photo were the lithium Smart batteries. They are moving away from those. I also saw a regular body Sprinter being built where the batteries filled those boxes so there was no basement storage at all.

Davydd(david)-since i'm not knowledgeable about lithium batteries-is a Smart lithium battery a brand name or a kind of lithium battery?

[pattonsr]

Smart Battery is a company who makes drop in replacement batteries that are Lithium (google Smart Battery).

For example, the 100 amp 12v battery is a group 31 size. Unfortunately the retail price is still $1,299 even after several years.

As Davydd said, Advanced RV is moving away from those. Instead of separate unheated compartments, it sounds like they will provide one large heated underneath compartment that will house 400, 600, or 800 amp hours of Lithium cells that are assembled by Advanced RV.

I believe Davydd said that for an extended Sprinter, there will be 3 storage boxes in the rear accessible from the top. Tinman22 asked how deep is the battery compartment.

Davydd said the middle storage box was 14" deep and the 2 flanking boxes were 11" deep. I remember that the Onan 3600 propane generator was 14.4" H so that is probably as low as one wants to go. Hopefully Davydd will be able to find out how low the battery box will hang down.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by gerrym51

Davydd(david)-since i'm not knowledgeable about lithium batteries-is a Smart lithium battery a brand name or a kind of lithium battery?

It's a brand name and it is a lithium battery a battery case that emulates a lead-acid or AGM group size. I think group size 31. I call that a "discreet" battery.

http://www.lithiumion-batteries.com/pro ... attery.php

Advanced RV had installed some of those like in this photo.



They are moving on from there and assembling individual cells into assemblies of 400ah, 600ah or 800ah that will fit in an insulated box under the floor without a lid cover. They've learned a lot about the batteries. You can monitor each and every individual cell for temperature and voltage from an energy management system if you desire through the Silverleaf display monitor. It seems what they are doing is simpler and more straight forward than what I can glean from the descriptions Roadtrek has been doing with their E-trek concepts. This article by Technomadia seems the closest online in what Advanced RV is doing. http://www.technomadia.com/lithium/

The storage boxes of which I gave the dimensions were deep enough for group 31 batteries but my boxes will be for storage. The insulated battery box will not stick down as deep as an Onan generator. I saw one built box but I did not measure it. I don't think it was the final design but it seems no deeper than the storage boxes. Here is a photo of the three Mzungu underfloor boxes:



Here is a photo of the top of the storage boxes I gave dimensions to that they are currently using. The batteries would be under the floor in toward the front of these boxes which will be used for storage. This is someone else's B just starting under construction.

[Davydd]

Change of subject. You know what is cool or should I say hot? The cab seats. First off, we are getting heated seats from Mercedes Benz. I don't know if we will need them but all our cars have them in Minnesota. It's a nice touch. We will also get the full load of air bags including the thoracic bag on the seat. Unlike Winnebago and the Travato, Advanced RV can and will re-upholster the seats with real leather and contrasting stitching to match the cabinetry. That seems to be a Mercedes Benz like motif to have contrasting stitching. I'm not done. They also remove some of the factory padding inserts that kind of look like a horse hair mat (actually plastic) and reinstall a gel mat. A gel mat is what is used in wheel chairs for prolonged comfort. The gel mat is an option with Advanced RV we accepted after testing the difference.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by tinman22

Davydd, thanks for all this great information re your B conversion, especially for all of us who likewise may follow your path to Advanced RV. I have daydreamed about using available "motive flow", such as wind over a surface (in motion), and engine exhaust gases, to drive a generating system to obtain free electrical generation - but probably, the speed of a cruising B would not be enough to excite and maintain enough generation to make the effort worthwhile (but it is interesting, though). Question: will your B have the added-on rear suspension air bag system?; and if so, will that mod, or the new battery box location decrease road clearance (considering the Labrador Loop drive and a lot of time in the Maritimes.

Tinman22,

I answered some of your questions with my battery response above. We are getting the AB Air Suspension package. You can see it in that photo I posted about the Mzungu battery boxes above. That was their first installation last winter. None of this reduces road clearance. The thing that hangs down the lowest on my Great West Van Legend is the Onan generator and the exhaust pipe that runs below the generator, both of which I will not have on Alvar.

The second alternator producing 300 ah while driving is way more than you will need for electrical generation to worry about wind or engine exhaust gases I would think. I think I would top off my 600 ah batteries in about an hour's drive if they were appreciably depleted.

[Davydd]

How many get the opportunity to see their B before it is converted maybe with the exception of Sportmobile? This is Alvar, newly delivered and untouched. You can see what a cargo van looks like as it comes from Mercedes Benz. Incidentally, I got to see the very first B Advanced RV converted 2-1/2 years ago. You can go here http://www.advanced-rv.com/about/ and see the back of my white hair in the "Empty Van" photo.

[tinman22]

Davydd: thanks for answering all those question for us - and especially for the newest photos.

[Davydd]

Here is a feature worth mentioning. Check your doors to see the difference. Advanced RV had these door hinge guard covers custom made for the rear doors. I'm mentioning it because ARV has done custom cabinetry work and screen enclosure work on other manufactured Class Bs. I think they are willing to work with other individuals in providing these. I've never had a problem with my hinges getting in the way of anything mainly because they are below the seat and out of view and touch from within the van. Still it is a nice touch.

[Davydd]

This my revised analysis and reasoning for determining the electrical requirements for Alvar after visiting Advanced RV last week and hammering out some minor corrections. The goal is to be able to tour and not have to consider each day whether to dry camp or seek an electrical hookup service. We would also have access and full function for everything electrical in our Class B at all times. Lastly, we desire to eliminate all propane and a propane generator. It appears a lithium-ion 600 amp battery bank and 450 watts solar would be the most appropriate combination to satisfy that goal. Based on our historical usage we are being generous on the high side of usage in our calculations.

Calculating RV Electrical Use

Required Daily Use:
0.4 amps x 24 hrs = 10 amps - Miscellaneous (parasitic)
2.0833 amps x 24 = 50 amps - Outback inverter standby
1 amps x 8 hrs = 8 amps charging electronics
5 amps x 2 hrs = 10 amps - Lights
3.5 amps x 24 hrs = 84 amps - Refrigerator average (5.2 amps when running)
114 amps x 0.5 hrs = 57 amps - glycol heat for hot water

Required Daily Use Sub Total: 219 amps

Anticipated Required Daily Use:
5 amps x 2 hrs = 10 amps - More lighting if not traveling, late fall, early spring or winter

125 amps x 0.5 hrs = 62 amps - Coffee Maker
1.5 amps x 4 hrs = 6 amps - Ceiling fan
336 amps x 0.10 hrs = 34 amps - 1875 watt hair dryer

Anticipated Daily Use Sub Total: 112 amps

Anticipated Additional All Day Parked Campground Use:

7 amps x 4 hrs = 28 amps - Laptop Computer
7 amps x 3 hrs = 21 amps - TV

Anticipated Additional Campground Use Sub Total: 49 amps

Optional Voluntary and Occasional Campground Use:
150 amps x 0.5 hrs = 75 amps - Induction Cooktop
75 amps x .25 hrs = 19 amps - Convection/Microwave Oven (900 W)
17 amps x 2 hrs = 34 amps - Crockpot

Most likely a max of 100 amps would be used in combination of the three cooking options. We are eliminating the propane cooktop. We will still carry charcoal and an outdoor Coleman propane stove for our preferred outdoor cooking.

Total Daily and Anticipated Use: 380 amps

Total Heavy Use (Required, Daily, Anticipated & Optional): 480 amps max - doubt this would ever happen.

Anticipated Periodic But Not Daily Use (Not counted in totals):

15 amps x 0.10 hrs = 1.5 amps - Macerator (est. every fourth day) Negligible
114 amps x 0.5 hrs = 57 amps - glycol heat (seldom and not an everyday use)

Air Conditioner: 125 amps per hour of use. Not anticipated other than very sporadically with historical Class B touring habits following seasons and weather, and could be used during a daytime driving stop if then.

On driving days 600 amps battery bank seems more than ample even without solar panels. One could run an air conditioner for a pet during a 1-2 hours lunch stop or event.

When dry camping 450 watts of solar producing 135 amps would mainly equalize the refrigerator and miscellaneous usage. Compared to our historical use we could dry camp up to about 3 days without driving or even idling the engine (equivalent to Onan generator charging.)

600 amps battery bank would be more than sufficient. There would be no need for an Onan propane generator or propane. We upped the solar to 450 watts based on some new flexible panels Advanced RV is proposing. There will be three panels each with a controller. So, if one were shaded partially in any way the other two would still function at full power. For this reason too we are eliminating an awning (as I never liked the look of the awning housing sticking up in the air on Sprinters) because if the passenger side is facing south the awning housing could partially shade all three panels at the same time. The flexible panels will be tight to the roof on an insulated board. You won’t be able to see them standing on the ground.

Reference:

Amps = Watts/Volts (120 AC) x 10 to convert to 12 volts
or just: Amps = Watts/12 DC

Advanced RV Lithium-ion Battery Options:
400 amps Lithium-ion batteries drawn down 80% = 320 amps usable
600 amps Lithium-ion batteries drawn down 80% = 480 amps usable
800 amps Lithium-ion batteries drawn down 80% = 640 amps usable

Advanced RV’s high idling parked or driving would replenish 300 amps in an hour with the second under hood alternator. You can idle as much as 3 hours but then you would have to drive for 30-45 minutes between idling periods. It appears driving 100 miles would recharge a depleted 600 ah battery bank.

Advanced RVs proposed Outback 2800 watt pure sine waver inverter is enough to power all electrical in a dry camping situation.

Advanced RV uses an Espar diesel hydronic heater and hot water.

Rule of Thumb: A 100 watt solar panel produces an average of about 6 amps per peak sun hour, or about 30 amp-hours per day. 450 watts would provide 135 amps. It could be higher or it could be less. I got this from the AM Solar website: http://www.amsolar.com/home/amr/page_26

History: With our current Great West Van Legend we have a total of 14 hours on the Onan generator over four camping seasons, over 350 nights camping and 65,000 mile driving. We probably have used our air conditioner less including time when plugged into shore power. When dry camping we seldom, through our frugality drew down our 210 amp hours of lead-acid batteries more than 30% on a typical daily stay. That was using about 65 ah. With the addition of a compressor refrigerator and high capacity inverter the equivalent historic usage would be about 200 ah. It makes the analysis seem extremely high but comforting to know with frugality one could go forever with 600 ah of lithium batteries. We have never gone much more than two days without driving the RV in some way which would recharge the batteries. Solar would seem to just be frosting on the cake.

With back door screens combined with side sliding door screen and 5 operable windows the van can equalize with the prevailing temperature and be comfortable up to 90F in low humidity conditions, i.e. tent camping like toughing it out with no air conditioning.

That’s it. We made a final no turn back commitment to go ahead.