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Old 06-14-2016, 11:33 PM   #171
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Yep, real world is what counts, and that is why it all gets so difficult at times. From what we found in the previously mentioned discussion on cumulative amp hours over life, discharges to 80% down don't really seem to have any real significant penalty, and certainly not the "certain death" claims that have been standard for years. Several in this discussion mentioned the 50% myth, which is pretty accurate, IMO. In the data we saw, even going totally dead wasn't as bad as portrayed, but definitely bad.

Real world tends to knock the pants off many of the claims and things like setpoints and triggers, and any voltage based reading and trigger on a loaded system is inherently inaccurate.
I think there are two additional factors that affect the bottom line regarding the longevity of batteries subjected to high levels of discharge:

1. Timely recharge before the amorphous lead sulfate degrades into a crystals that resist the conversion back into lead. The rule of thumb should be the sooner the better.

2. Physical stability. IMO, a really bad thing is to subject the discharged battery to any vibration that encourages the lead sulfate to slough off the plate and sink to the bottom of the case where it will never be recovered and in the worst case will short out the plates. The unique construction of an AGM may mitigate this but doesn't eliminate it.

That said, your skepticism regarding conventional doomsday predictions on highly discharged batteries is well taken. I had a Concord Lifeline 31 AGM battery that (because of my world class propensity to screw up), discharged to a terminal voltage of three volts and didn't discover it until after months after it happened. I couldn't even get my battery charger to recognize it. So I replaced it. But subsequently, I tried using a fixed variable voltage power supply on it just for kicks and surprisingly it came back to life. I then put it through a normal charging process and not only did it rejuvenate itself, it shows a perfectly respectable discharge curve under a carbon pile load tester. Who wudda thunk?
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Old 06-15-2016, 02:41 AM   #172
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That said, your skepticism regarding conventional doomsday predictions on highly discharged batteries is well taken. I had a Concord Lifeline 31 AGM battery that (because of my world class propensity to screw up), discharged to a terminal voltage of three volts and didn't discover it until after months after it happened. I couldn't even get my battery charger to recognize it. So I replaced it. But subsequently, I tried using a fixed variable voltage power supply on it just for kicks and surprisingly it came back to life. I then put it through a normal charging process and not only did it rejuvenate itself, it shows a perfectly respectable discharge curve under a carbon pile load tester. Who wudda thunk?
The battery lifetime spec in the Lifeline Technical Manual show 375 cycles at 100% discharge and the manual describes the process to use to revive a fully discharged battery.

For reference, 1000 cycles at 50% discharge and 550 cycles at 80% discharge.
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Old 06-15-2016, 04:24 AM   #173
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The battery lifetime spec in the Lifeline Technical Manual show 375 cycles at 100% discharge and the manual describes the process to use to revive a fully discharged battery.

For reference, 1000 cycles at 50% discharge and 550 cycles at 80% discharge.
I don't think the 375 cycles at 100% spec includes driving the battery down to 3 volts and leaving it that way for six months.

I do think their batteries are awesome. The replacement I got is their upgraded 31 with a bump up in the AH capacity. One caveat, however: don't misplace or lose the cable attachment bolts - they're metric threaded. Trust me, I've been there.
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Old 06-16-2016, 06:56 PM   #174
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LOL. As if Roadtrek has any electrical engineers on staff. None credentialed as far as I can tell. Please name one if anyone can.

All they do is trial and error experimentation at their customers expense. This is just more of the same. 6 amps draw per battery without any equipment running?!

The top line CS with the big bank and all the equipment tops $180k and they still are having issues. I can't see not considering the ARV for $40k more. It certainly would be worth the 12 month wait if postings like this are any consideration.

FWIW, my cheapo, bare bones lithium setup is running strong with no issues. Simplicity is bliss IMNSHO.

FitRV is about to unleash their Nations second alternator setup in their Travato, and I expect, a conversion to lithium. I hope they are removing their Onan and installing a big battery bank in that spot. I'm dying to see what they do and how it will work.
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Old 06-16-2016, 10:15 PM   #175
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LOL. As if Roadtrek has any electrical engineers on staff. None credentialed as far as I can tell. Please name one if anyone can.

All they do is trial and error experimentation at their customers expense. This is just more of the same. 6 amps draw per battery without any equipment running?!

The top line CS with the big bank and all the equipment tops $180k and they still are having issues. I can't see not considering the ARV for $40k more. It certainly would be worth the 12 month wait if postings like this are any consideration.

FWIW, my cheapo, bare bones lithium setup is running strong with no issues. Simplicity is bliss IMNSHO.

FitRV is about to unleash their Nations second alternator setup in their Travato, and I expect, a conversion to lithium. I hope they are removing their Onan and installing a big battery bank in that spot. I'm dying to see what they do and how it will work.
Ron you are funny- i must point out you live in a moderate climate zone
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Old 06-16-2016, 10:35 PM   #176
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LOL. As if Roadtrek has any electrical engineers on staff. None credentialed as far as I can tell. Please name one if anyone can.

All they do is trial and error experimentation at their customers expense. This is just more of the same. 6 amps draw per battery without any equipment running?!

The top line CS with the big bank and all the equipment tops $180k and they still are having issues. I can't see not considering the ARV for $40k more. It certainly would be worth the 12 month wait if postings like this are any consideration.

FWIW, my cheapo, bare bones lithium setup is running strong with no issues. Simplicity is bliss IMNSHO.


FitRV is about to unleash their Nations second alternator setup in their Travato, and I expect, a conversion to lithium. I hope they are removing their Onan and installing a big battery bank in that spot. I'm dying to see what they do and how it will work.
Well, I'm basking in the pleasure of having the opportunity to even just converse with someone for whom 40k is just chump change.

Can you provide details regarding the problems with the CS? Mechanical? Electrical?

Surfed through your blog. Awesome. Man, that's as good as it gets!
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Old 06-16-2016, 10:44 PM   #177
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Cruising - nothing specific to the CS, it's just the most equivalent to the ARV. All the problems I've heard of are related to the Ecotrek as you'll see if you wade thru this thread on the batteries.

Gerry - when or if I installl heaters on my batteries, they'll draw a lot less than 6 amps per battery! Plus, they'll be on a switch!
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Old 06-16-2016, 10:46 PM   #178
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Hey, I have been accused of considering $40K chump change around here. You've been conversing with me.

BTW, There is way more in the $40K than just batteries. It is across the board in every aspect you desire to consider and compare.
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Old 06-16-2016, 11:39 PM   #179
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Cruising - nothing specific to the CS, it's just the most equivalent to the ARV. All the problems I've heard of are related to the Ecotrek as you'll see if you wade thru this thread on the batteries.

Gerry - when or if I installl heaters on my batteries, they'll draw a lot less than 6 amps per battery! Plus, they'll be on a switch!
Ron-you'll have bought another rv by then
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Old 07-23-2016, 03:34 PM   #180
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Another thread got to talking about warranties and such, and the Ecotrek battery drain issue came back to mind in relation the the value of a long warranty if there is no admission of a problem existing.

Has anyone heard anything lately in regards to if the 6 amps of parasitic drain, per module, was accurate, or if Roadtrek has said what they are going to do to fix the issue?
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