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Old 05-16-2019, 10:35 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Jostalli View Post
We have plenty of experience with off-grid climate control. We explain the equipment required for off-grid A/C (800Ah-900Ah lithium and either rooftop or split DC A/C) to every prospect. 14-16 hours of runtime is typical. Aux alternator is recommended.
Is that the smaller BTU systems? Also, to get 16 hours runtime what conditions are we talking about? Is it Pacific Northwest or south of Tampa? Do you advise your clients of any time limits for idling the engine? Is that limit enough to get the system ready for another 16 hour runtime session or would they have to hit the highway for a long drive on day 2?

The more info you can provide the better off we'll all be.
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Old 05-16-2019, 12:23 PM   #22
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................... I am considering the Galleria with the Li3 system and was contemplating how much solar I really would need. I note that they are now claiming, with the ProAir 12v Air conditioner, 10 honest hours of runtime of the Air Conditioner with the 600amp LiFePo batteries. ................
That's a pretty clear claim by Coachmen & ProAir and promoted by Xantrex. One guy in the video says "minimum of 10 hours" but he did preface it with "should". Same guy says set it at 72 degrees.

We'll see user reports soon enough and know how long runtime they get.



The 600Ah battery is 88% usable before you get a warning and will shut down when down to 10% capacity remaining. That's already down to 528Ah usable pre-warning stage with nothing else on.


proair amp draw.jpg

Let's say you want to keep 50Ah available for all other things so you're now down to 478Ah that you're willing to devote to running the A/C. If we pick the 90 degree ambient temperature from the Proair chart we see that power consumption is 91 amps. 478/91=5.25 that indicates that you could probably count on 5 hours of A/C runtime at 100% duty cycle. At 50% duty cycle it does look like you could get 10 hours. I don't know if a 50% duty cycle matches well with 90 degree ambient or not - would the van have to be in the shade or is that at night? It would be really useful if Proair and Coachmen or Xantrex explained the test conditions that permit the 10hr runtime.

From the Xantrex e-gen operator manual:

Quote:
Recommended Ambient Temperature
Charging range * 0 – 35 C (32 – 95 F)
Discharging range* -20 – 40 C (-4 – 104 F)
Storage range** 15 – 35 C (59 – 95 F)

* Staying within the recommended ambient temperature range will yield optimal system performance. For maximum temperature specifications, refer to each device's datasheet and Owner's Guide.
** Refer to the battery manufacturer’s recommendations for short-term (<1 month) and long-term (>1 month up to 3 months) storage. Proper storage is crucial to battery longevity and fast system deployment.
Based on where I live, I would not be able to stay within the recommendations for all three: neither charging, discharging nor storage.
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Old 05-16-2019, 12:37 PM   #23
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My husband and I have 300 AH lithium, 300 watts solar, and a 2,000 watt inverter. We can run our roof a/c for about 2 hours on battery. I also run it on the OEM generator at times.

Among my security DIY installations is a Canary IP camera which includes climate monitoring (temp and humidity) sent to my phone in real time (the Canary is enabled by a Netgear air card that I include on my main cellular account with Verizon).

Because I have this particular Canary (we own several similar devices) mounted near the curb side upper front "corner" of the van, it is right near the roof and reports a much hotter temp than the van actually is down at the level of my dog. From experience, I know what the correlation looks like (depending on the sun angle, it can read about 15 degrees hotter than the temp at her location).

When I leave her in the van in urban areas, and in conditions when it may become hot, I always have this live link to the Canary. Always. If conditions change in the van, I can see it on my iPhone in real time, and I can return to the van immediately. Thus, I'm not trusting her safety to any one system that might break down unexpectedly.

Red arrow pointed at her, all the way in the back. The Canary is optimized for closer facial recognition, so a bit blurry in the background:

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Old 05-16-2019, 01:50 PM   #24
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Marko's very good post above shows exactly why we always need to see how all these claims for AC run and other power use stuff are calculated and under what conditions. 10 hours of AC run claims are basically useless without that information,IMO. as nobody really will know if they will really get 10 hours under their conditions or not. Of course, this is likely the intent for the marketing, basically to leave out the conditions so they can make the best looking performance, while still "technically" telling the truth.


It certainly appears that Coachman is assuming a 50% duty cycle to get the 10 hour claim per Marko's calculations, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you declare that and the conditions that gave that duty cycle. Most customers are going to see 10 hours minimum called out and assume it is literally true, and that regardless of conditions they will get 10 hours of AC time from full batteries. This is just like the IdleUp discussion where we finally found out the tests were run at night in a precooled van, but that wasn't stated in the original claims of run time and we never did get the temps.


I am afraid this world where it is now getting common for the manufacturers to mix units at will to confuse customers and omit critical information that is needed. Roadtrek started most of this and was able to get away with it for a long time with bluster and deception and now the others seem to be following that model.


I guess the RV manufacturers are working hard at earning their terrible reputation for honesty.
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:08 PM   #25
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In A/C run-time discussions, the only number that ever interests me is current draw at the battery while the compressor is running. This allows for apples-to-apples comparisons. The fancy variable-speed compressors complicate this a bit and it will still be temperature sensitive (for several reasons), but I think it is still the best way to compare. Many assumptions are removed when you look at it that way.
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:14 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booster View Post
Marko's very good post above shows exactly why we always need to see how all these claims for AC run and other power use stuff are calculated and under what conditions. 10 hours of AC run claims are basically useless without that information,IMO. as nobody really will know if they will really get 10 hours under their conditions or not. Of course, this is likely the intent for the marketing, basically to leave out the conditions so they can make the best looking performance, while still "technically" telling the truth.


It certainly appears that Coachman is assuming a 50% duty cycle to get the 10 hour claim per Marko's calculations, and there is nothing wrong with that as long as you declare that and the conditions that gave that duty cycle. Most customers are going to see 10 hours minimum called out and assume it is literally true, and that regardless of conditions they will get 10 hours of AC time from full batteries. This is just like the IdleUp discussion where we finally found out the tests were run at night in a precooled van, but that wasn't stated in the original claims of run time and we never did get the temps.


I am afraid this world where it is now getting common for the manufacturers to mix units at will to confuse customers and omit critical information that is needed. Roadtrek started most of this and was able to get away with it for a long time with bluster and deception and now the others seem to be following that model.


I guess the RV manufacturers are working hard at earning their terrible reputation for honesty.
booster, there is obviously some truth about what you have written. But Coachmen is not Roadtrek/Wendlands. And there are answers with Coachmen, Lithionics, Zantrex.............. Not even available with Roadtrek.
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Old 05-16-2019, 02:54 PM   #27
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Roadtrek's more recent guidance would appear way more conservative than Coachmen:

With RT's 800Ah pack being 80% usable before protection kicks in it leaves 640Ah usable and they say that you can expect 5 hours runtime. Even with it being an AC and not DC air conditioner my calcs still indicate that is calculated at a 100% duty cycle.

From the guidance: https://www.roadtrek.com/wp-content/...il-24-2017.pdf

Quote:
With 4 EcoTrek batteries you have a usable bank of about 8000 watt hours, so you can run your air conditioner for about 8000W/1500W which equals approximately 5 hours.
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Old 05-16-2019, 04:22 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by Jostalli View Post
We have plenty of experience with off-grid climate control. We explain the equipment required for off-grid A/C (800Ah-900Ah lithium and either rooftop or split DC A/C) to every prospect. 14-16 hours of runtime is typical. Aux alternator is recommended.
Thank youthats very helpful. Im definitely feeling more confident about traveling full time with my dogs, as a single person.
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Old 05-16-2019, 04:25 PM   #29
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Davydd,

I am concerned about the dogs as well and we're getting ready to downsize to a class B this fall/winter after one more big trip. You made a good point about solar, you're not getting it for your next van. I am considering the Galleria with the Li3 system and was contemplating how much solar I really would need. I note that they are now claiming, with the ProAir 12v Air conditioner, 10 honest hours of runtime of the Air Conditioner with the 600amp LiFePo batteries. That sounds about perfect for my needs, and I would not need solar, either as I'd either be driving (quicker charge with the second alternator) or at a campground for most overnights (charging on shore power). I understand the LiFePo batteries can be turned-off and lose little charge when sitting, don't need watering and are relatively maintenance-free.

I want neither a generator or to over-do the solar. Looking forward to hearing more about what a van with total battery-powered systems would look like. The final thing I'd love to get rid of is the propane - a heating system powered by diesel would be better, but not sure how trouble-free those systems are vs the propane system that many coaches have.

Hope the OP is getting a good feel for what is available to meet her needs.

best,

Dave
Definitely, Dave. Tons of great information! It sounds like the most important is to understand the minimum equipment requirements so that I can select the best RV for me (and my pups).
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Old 05-16-2019, 04:26 PM   #30
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Roadtrek's more recent guidance would appear way more conservative than Coachmen:

With RT's 800Ah pack being 80% usable before protection kicks in it leaves 640Ah usable and they say that you can expect 5 hours runtime. Even with it being an AC and not DC air conditioner my calcs still indicate that is calculated at a 100% duty cycle.

From the guidance: https://www.roadtrek.com/wp-content/...il-24-2017.pdf
Excellent—thanks for this information, Markopolo!
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