Photog's Lifted Suspension 2009 Roadtrek 190V

[themexicandoctor]

Evening,

Guys I have spent months trying to renter this forum and website, I know very little about computers and I have just invested another three hours trying to put this together.

I cannot find my drafts that were saved, I have been redirected to God knows where and this is not valuable to me but I owe you guys the favour after climbing on your backs for so long.

I AM NOT going to learn how to do the photos here and now, I may never will.

Just email me at themexicandoctor@hotmail.com or mark@thewakefieldinstitute.com

And I will gladly send you anything I have.

Moreover, CALL BILL, he's the expert, I am just the beneficiary.

I have tried to answer the questions as they are listed below.

Hope this helps ... Wakefield


from BOOSTER
Interesting stuff. What did he do different than Tufftruck on the springs? Springrate, length, etc.

DONT SCREW AROUND WITH THESE MANUFACTURERS, THE MARKET IS TOO SMALL, SEE BELOW

When I first began this project I called Randy (great guy/total failure for me/two times/pissed me off), at Otto Max because of what I saw was your endeavours, at this stage there was about half the posts you have now.

Told him what the issue was and he said no problem, he knew of the issue and was looking to trial his new coil springs, that he would send me down a set of coils at no cost (to Supersprings of Santa Barbara who had lifted the rear) and lets see what happens.

I drive round trip 250 miles, spend half a day waiting for the Mechanic to get the Coils in, only to find they are too short!

Before I even put them in, I called Randy several times and took photos of them standing next to the original springs, they looked too short but Randy assured me that once they are in they will be longer, blah blah blah.

They ended up shorter.

And then another half a day to put the originals back in.

The Mechanic's cost was graciously absorbed by Gerry at Supersprings, close to $450-600!

Then I tried some other ideas, again, half a day later tearing the front end off and the expert is scratching his head and saying what I want done, cannot be done.

Then a few months ago, maybe February in frustration I call Randy to see if he ever got around to getting his latest improved version of coils made.

He is ecstatic, yes he has the Coils and he will send a set down to me by expedited delivery (I paid this time both ways $100), and I watch the installers try to get Coils in that just won't fit into the space provided and they are there for hours.

I sent him photos of everything including my swingarm, etc with the stamped id numbers

I am pissed, I call Randy and he starts giving me the run around saying he had personally gone to the GM Dealer and purchased the swingarm, etc and built the latest set of coils around these parts.

All BS!

But at first, not being an engineer, or maybe Roadtrek cut a corner, or GM made my individual truck on a Bad Monday (and that is why all these other 8 experts cannot rectify the problem), I get the GM Tech people onto the problem and they have all there experts checking the part numbers, etc .

I pay this Mechanic $500 cash, he gives me $100 back because he feels bad. I am still out overall $500 plus this time, two days.

A day later I get the Head Honcho Tech from GM tell me that everything at my end & theirs correlates for the 2004 3500 I own, that was put together by Roadtrek and sold as a 2005.

The verdict; Randy or OttoMax, with our particular needs, are pissing in the wind and pissed me off!


BRIAN
Did Bill change the arch of the factory leaf springs, along with adding a leaf?
You said the springs you ended up with would be too harsh for corrugated roads and uneven surfaces. I have that problem with the current TuffTruck springs. They are fine on smooth highways. They reduced pitching and rolling enough to remove the front swaybar. And they provided 2+ inches of lift. It sounds like you tried some of the things we have tried, and run into some of the same brick walls.
3) Sooooo, in you opinion, what is the difference between the Bill Erb coil springs and the TuffTruck springs?
================================================== ============================================
Brian, I am Mechanical with some things but this is a science beyond me.

I believe he may have, in the process of putting the tired springs in the oven, strengthened and re-arched them.

And like I mentioned, he dismantled the rear overleaf system from Supersprings, painted it and put it back on. I mention this because he said every other system like this he has seen is bandaid designed to fail but he was very impressed with the roller system engineering & the overall design. But because of the weight of my truck (around 8500-8600 lbs), the damage caused by the tired springs, etc, within less than a year, Bill had to, while I waited, made new rubber parts & stronger than Teflon bushing parts.

Again, he liked the design and thought that keeping it, with the better than new leafs in the rear plus one & the new coils up front, it should only give me more support.

The difference; call Bill yourself and spend 5 minutes on the phone with him.

I knew within a minute.
Evening,

I will attempt to answer everyone's questions as they arrived.

FYI it took me a while to get back in, months in fact and another hour tonight.

It seems the username is case sensitive & I am internet frustrated, the only sensitiveness I have noticed about a case before is when beer came in wooden boxes & I sat down on one and the nail wasn't embedded.

Here is my email; themexicandoctor@hotmail.com or mark@thewakefieldinstitute.com

I am NOT going to attempt photos yet, I have an instantaneous temper and I struggling as it is.

Any photos, send an email to either address and I will send you the photos.


from BOOSTER
Interesting stuff. What did he do different than Tufftruck on the springs? Springrate, length, etc.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

DONT SCREW AROUND WITH THESE MANUFACTURERS, THE MARKET IS TOO SMALL, SEE BELOW

When I first began this project I called Randy (well meaning & great guy/total failure for me/two times/pissed me off), at Otto Max because of what I saw was your endeavours, at this stage there was about half the posts you have now.

I have been through the whole ambulance/diesel spiel, etc, but that is now, not then.

Told him what the issue was and he said no problem, he knew of the issue and was looking to trial his new coil springs, that he would send me down a set of coils at no cost (to Supersprings of Santa Barbara who had lifted the rear) and lets see what happens.

I drive round trip 250 miles, spend half a day waiting for the Mechanic to get the Coils in, only to find they are too short!

Before I even put them in, I called Randy several times and took photos of them standing next to the original springs, they looked too short but Randy assured me that once they are in they will be longer, blah blah blah.

They ended up shorter.

And then another half a day to put the originals back in.

The Mechanic's cost was graciously absorbed by Gerry at Supersprings, close to $450-600!

Then I tried some other ideas, again, half a day later tearing the front end off and the expert is scratching his head and saying what I want done, cannot be done.

Then a few months ago, maybe February in frustration I call Randy to see if he ever got around to getting his latest improved version of coils made.

He is ecstatic, yes he has the Coils and he will send a set down to me by expedited delivery (I paid this time both ways $100), and I watch the installers try to get Coils in that just won't fit into the space provided and they are there for hours.

I sent him photos of everything including my swingarm, etc with the stamped id numbers

I am pissed, I call Randy and he starts giving me the run around saying he had personally gone to the GM Dealer and purchased the swingarm, etc and built the latest set of coils around these parts.

All BS!

But at first, not being an engineer, or maybe Roadtrek cut a corner, or GM made my individual truck on a Bad Monday (and that is why all these other 8 experts cannot rectify the problem), I get the GM Tech people onto the problem and they have all there experts checking the part numbers, etc .

I pay this Mechanic $500 cash, he gives me $100 back because he feels bad. I am still out overall $500 plus this time, two days.

A day later I get the Head Honcho Tech from GM tell me that everything at my end & theirs correlates for the 2004 3500 I own, that was put together by Roadtrek and sold as a 2005.

The verdict; Randy or OttoMax, with our particular needs, are pissing in the wind and pissed me off!


BRIAN
Did Bill change the arch of the factory leaf springs, along with adding a leaf?
You said the springs you ended up with would be too harsh for corrugated roads and uneven surfaces. I have that problem with the current TuffTruck springs. They are fine on smooth highways. They reduced pitching and rolling enough to remove the front swaybar. And they provided 2+ inches of lift. It sounds like you tried some of the things we have tried, and run into some of the same brick walls.
3) Sooooo, in you opinion, what is the difference between the Bill Erb coil springs and the TuffTruck springs?
================================================== ============================================
Brian, I am Mechanical with some things but this is a science beyond me.

I believe he may have, in the process of putting the tired springs in the oven, strengthened and re-arched them.

And like I mentioned, he dismantled the rear overleaf system from Supersprings, painted it and put it back on. I mention this because he said every other system like this he has seen is bandaid designed to fail but he was very impressed with the roller system engineering & the overall design. But because of the weight of my truck (around 8500-8600 lbs), the damage caused by the tired springs, etc, within less than a year, Bill had to, while I waited, made new rubber parts & stronger than Teflon bushing parts.

Again, he liked the design and thought that keeping it, with the better than new leafs in the rear plus one & the new coils up front, it should only give me more support.

The difference; call Bill yourself and spend 5 minutes on the phone with him.

I knew within a minute.

Who else would tell you to come up on a weekend, open his factory on a Sunday, and just by reading the blogs here be able to overnight create coils that did everything we have been looking for (if you need more inches tell him), and tell me it would be done by afternoon and moreover, when we measured the vehicle afterwards, it was within 1/12th of an inch!

Ask him any question you want about your problem.

Use my name if you wish.

Tell him what you need.

He is a walking, talking, dreaming, independent Suspension Guru who for just a few hundred dollars gave me everything I needed and more - I would have paid five times the amount. As it is, I lost about $2000 before I even met Bill. Not including time & hair loss.

And a gentleman who doesn't do this for the money but the challenge - I got an incredible deal, I wanted to pay him more.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ ++++++++++


This weekend I will be installing a prototype set of coil springs, from TuffTruck.
The current TuffTruck springs are the same length as the factory springs, but they are much more stiff.

The prototype springs are 2" longer, and the spring rate should be lower. In the end, this should provide the necessary lift, while also giving a softer ride. I am looking to improve the ride on rough pavement and dirt roads.

I will be using an App for my iPhone that records the vibrations using the internal accelerometers or the iPhone. I will be able to compare the before and after effects of the modification. I will be doing this for the rear springs also, when that time comes.

BRIAN,

I am presuming these are the latest set that Randy keeps on promising to have had made, I was supposed to have these 3 months ago post my second experience with Randy. Randy is a salesman, not an engineer.

If he is an engineer, God help Canada.

I have the photos of your unit because he sent them to me a year or so ago and the fact you found them too tough.

You know how I feel about Randy & OttoMax but I am sure he is giving them to you free of charge.

I hope it works out and if it doesn't, you seek an agreement beforehand that they pay for any mechanical fees. And your time.

But maybe you are doing them yourself, in that case, God help Randy!

Don't trust me, call Bill first, see what he can do.
===============================================

And then I noticed this from BOOSTER;
That will be interesting to see how it works. I seem to remember Tufftruck made some longer ones in the past, and that the guy that put them in said they bowed out badly. That kind of makes sense because they are the between the a-arms mounting with both mounting surfaces changing angle. You definitely will need a spring compressor to put them in.

================================================== ================================
BOOSTER
Rereading what themexicandoctor posted. He used KYB shocks in his upgrade, not the Bilsteins like we used. If they are like the other KYB Gas-adjusts I have used, they will do a very good job of controlling motion, but will severely harshen the ride. I actually just put a set in the Buick Roadmaster wagon, because I was too cheap to get Bilsteins, and it did get significantly harsher! We found the spring change to not harshen the ride all that much, but we went to the Bilsteins and Michelin MS2 tires at the same time, so that could definitely have smoothed us back out.

I used the KYB Gas Adjust Shocks, I had new tires installed b efore Bill called Equaliser Sport A/P, I got them for $80 each from my friend who owns a Big O Tire here in LA and he said the manufacturer had a very good name, I believe they are made in Japan?

Perhaps they are not perfect for the load characteristics and I will replace them with Michelins in another 20,000 miles or less.

I do run nitrogen only in them.

I assumed the slightly harsher ride in the rear was due to the 6 year old leaf springs going into the oven and the fact I added another, nothing more.

I would have gladly purchased the Bilsteins but everyone I spoke with said the Gas Adjust which are a higher grade of KYB will be fine, at 1/3rd of the price at shockwarehouse and come with a similar 5 year warranty. I am never cheap in solving mechanical issues, I only want the best.
================================================== ================================================== ================

I hope this helps guys, but Bill is the Guru and with your knowledge, you will know that in one minute. Call him.

And if you want photos, send me an email and I will gladly send you a whole bunch including before and after together with measurements, etc.

[themexicandoctor]

My apologies for the repeat.

I guess that's where my drafts were.

All the answers are in there guys but again, CALL BILL ERB, he is the Guru ... Wakefield

[themexicandoctor]

Graciously Brian/Photog allowed me to send him, my photos which he is doing some magical with.

I have hundreds more if you need more detail.

And these he promised to post.

The truck rides a little harder but it now handles like a sports car whereas before it felt like a boat in big swells with water in the boat moving with the pitching & yawing.

I have tested this set up pretty hard ...

[booster]

Originally Posted by Photog

This weekend I will be installing a prototype set of coil springs, from TuffTruck.
The current TuffTruck springs are the same length as the factory springs, but they are much more stiff.

The prototype springs are 2" longer, and the spring rate should be lower. In the end, this should provide the necessary lift, while also giving a softer ride. I am looking to improve the ride on rough pavement and dirt roads.

I will be using an App for my iPhone that records the vibrations using the internal accelerometers or the iPhone. I will be able to compare the before and after effects of the modification. I will be doing this for the rear springs also, when that time comes.

I finally found the reference to the installation of Tufftruck springs #1618, which are said to be 4400# and somewhat longer than stock, but bowed when installed.

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fu...d/25792441.cfm

[Photog]

Here are Doc's photos, with some explanation for each photo (use "full screen" mode for your browser).

I will start with the "bowed" springs, and the experts opinions:

From Doc:
The front end with both wheels turned out/as far as they would go.

I asked Bill & he said this;

"Perfectly normal for that control arm articulation"

And in the meantime spoke to four other lesser gurus including the Head Suspension Tech at Chevrolet/GMC and he said that's spot on.

Moreover, he said if Bill Erb did the work, its the best out there.

Please include these two photos with the explanation as I have been on other forums and people are pulling their hair out over the same bows ...

Of course the bow is less with the wheels turned in.

These springs do not contact the shocks.



In the rear Bill Erb added an extra leaf to the leaf pack (black). The extra leaf (painted red) on top of the leaf pack, from SuperSpring ( http://supersprings.com/supersprings...ew_general.asp ) had been in place for the prior year. Bill cleaned it up and painted it red. This makes a total of two extra leaves more than stock. The leaf pack was disassembled, I assume re-scragged, re-arched, painted and installed.

[Photog]

This is what it looked like, with just the rear springs installed. "Stink Bug" was the description Doc used.



The photos showing the measurements from the ground to the fender well, show a 2.5 inch lift, in the front suspension.

After the front was done, it looks more level.

[booster]

Those front springs look to be very similar to the Tufftruck 5000# ones. 8 coils, very similar looking wire diameter. Can't see what the free length would be, though, so that could be different. Doc's results are also similar, 2-3" lift, harsher ride, better handling. Mr Rob has a pic of the Tufftruck springs back a few pages.

[themexicandoctor]

Thank you Photog for the photo integration.

I hope the Install this weekend works, please take them out of the back and photograph them next to the old ones.

If I were a religious man Iwould be praying for both of you; that the Randy/Otto Max Coils finally work & they become a standard retrofit for all 170-190-210 owners who intend actually to drive beyond the freeway.

Or if they don't work, I will pray for Randy's Health & Hearing because the second time I tried to install a set of his perfect fit coils I am sure he heard me yelling all the way in Canada promising to readjust his neck.

And he is such a great guy, you just want it to work.

Trust me when I say I tried half the ideas on here, I literally took this forum to different experts and said " can you please solve this problem", I struck out 8 times from spacers to blocks and after Bill did my front coils and I already had the initial rear lift from Supersprings I coincidentally got my alignment done by a shop local to Bill (after 100 miles) and the same mechanic was going to sell me a brand new set of air bags just like some have here, Firestones, but when I went back and asked Bill his opinion he was adamant; they are not a solution, especially for own needs, in fact they will only cause more problems.

Booster you asked a question about spring diameter, etc.

Please call Bill Erb he will gladly tell you anything you need to know, for him its not about the money, its about the challenge.

By the way those photos are a little dark around the wheels because of the shadows, I am going to send Photog a couple more next day or so.

[themexicandoctor]

And check out http://www.supersprings.com.

Gerry the Owner is a good guy and has a bunch of products like the rear over leaf roller system like the one I have painted red. I presume that is what Photog is calling a second leaf spring.

It gave me around 3 inches straight away.

Plus they have high end bump stops (I use them front & back) and products that eliminate the use of air bags.

The Sump Coil Springs will NOT work for us.

But bottom line again; call Bill and he can set you up in half a day without any other products beyond what he makes in his factory overnight or while you wait.

And his prices are ridiculousy low, moreover they outperform everything we have tried on this site.

[booster]

"Of course the bow is less with the wheels turned in."

Do you mean when the weight is on them, or when they are turned by the steering?

[booster]

I keep going back and trying to figure all this out. Doc says he told his guy about all our problems, and he came up with a solution we all missed. As far as I know, at least for me, the only problem would be increased harshness, and for us it is a minor issue. Others have considered it a bigger issue, perhaps because of different tires or shocks, or personal taste. With the 5000# springs from Tufftruk, there were no fit issues or modifications needed. It raised the front 2+ inches with no binding or other issues. The rear airbags fit fine and did an excellent job of giving 2+ inches of lift. It is true I put in Firestones and then replaced them with Airlift, but it was not because they didn't work well. It was because the way they mounted put them in the way of my homemade swaybar, which also worked perfectly. Doc says his van is hasher on bumps now, so to me, it appears he has the same "problem" as our lift does. Without driving them both on the same roads, no one will know which is smoother or handles better. The spring problems that I know of, concerning Tufftruck, were in relation to their prototype attempts to improve the ride while still lifting the van. There were two of them that I know of. IMO, the bowing incident may/may not been an issue. We didn't see any pics, so it may have been very normal, especially if the shock was not connected. Doc's fitting problem seems pretty strange, as Tufftruck makes the other springs to fit the control arms in question. How did Tufftruck mess that up?

Photog has done much more, and more radical, experimenting. Some that worked well, some not as well, but this is to be expected when pushing the envelope to meet your needs, and he wanted to go much higher than the rest of us. His latest experiment with the longer/softer springs will be very interesting for all of us. I really don't know if we would bother to change, as the harsher ride isn't much issue to us, but I think it depends on what Photog learns. (love it when someone else does the dirty work for me!)

Another thing I haven't been able to understand is Doc going to many suspension shops and being told that the parts listed here, Tufftruck springs, airbags, extra leaf springs, lift blocks, etc couldn't be done by them, and the vans can't be lifted. The truck repair shop that put in our springs would also have done the airbags, controller, and compressor at the same time, if we weren't going to do it ourselves. The whole lift would be with off the shelf parts and take 1/2 day to be totally done. It is scary to thing there are that many bad shops in Doc's area.

Bill Erb sounds like a very knowledgeable guy. It sure would be nice if would come on here a give us a quick primer on what he found out, and what he came up with. I would feel very out of line calling him with questions about what he did to someone else's vehicle, when I have no intent in buying anything (well maybe springs if they are obviously superior for some reason). He has a business to run and it wouldn't be right to tie up his time, as time is money.

[themexicandoctor]

Just invested another 2 plus hours twice answering booster's post and both times, lost both replies after I had logged in and was asked to log in again after submitting my preview, did so, pressed return to previous screen and nothing but a blank page so I am going to save this like a Mickey Mouse Clerk and be very brief in my reply, I trust the message is understandable.

I owe it to you guys, like I said from my first post I have been riding on the work all of you did before me.


1. The harshness of the ride is limited to corrugated metal roads and when driving over private parking speed bumps.

2. When Bill installed my Front Coils, it was like a different vehicle and there was no harshness just a firmer ride, better handling, everything.

3. I work in LA, Bill is 500 miles away in Dixon, by Sacramento. That afternoon I wanted to make sure the work that he did, performed as he said it would before I drove back to LA so i took a week off, put a hundred miles or so on the Van and then had it aligned.

It was at the alignment place the mechanic offered to install for me, a brand new set of Firestone Air Bags with the controller, etc he had just taken off of one of his trucks for $350 installed - what a deal.

4. I drove back to Bill"s and told him and he said he takes airbags off almost all of the vehicles that come into him and then solves the entire problem the right way and that if I wanted to firm up the rear if could wait a day or two he would re-arch my existing and exhausted springs, add another leaf (but he thought it may be a little more harsh once this was done) and if I needed, add new KYB Gas Adjustable Shocks.

5. That Saturday, he did everything as I explained and it was only then that I noticed the new harshness when going through parking lots, etc.

Again, only after he added the extra rear leaf did I notice a slightly harsher ride.

The shocks had not arrived by the weekend so I agreed to drive back down to LA, use the Van for a month, and then return and have the shocks installed (I ended up getting them through shockwarehouse.com even cheaper than Bill could) and the Van checked.


1. As to the shops around my area, I went to Supersprings 125 miles away to see if they could offer a solution.

Instantly this product gave me at least 2.5 inches more in the rear; http://supersprings.com/supersprings_ov ... eneral.asp

This product did not do anything for the front; http://supersprings.com/supersprings_ov ... eneral.asp

And they did install some higher quality ride stops that they manufacture.


And for almost a year I drove with my vehicle in the Stink Bug photo.


2 & 3. And then twice I was screwed around by the well intentioned Randy at Otto Max & Tuff Truck Springs.

4. Then I installed the Daystar Urethane spacers that collapsed on one side in less than a couple of weeks.

5. Another expert made some Metal Spacers that started to fracture a couple of weeks later.

6. A Heavy Truck company that manufactures aftermarket equipment for Water Trucks, etc tried their magic.

7 & 8. I went to two famous truck racing teams whose experts pulled them apart and then put it back together saying unless I was to spend a huge amount of money remanufacturing, etc that the space they had to work with on this Van was too small, etc.

I must add that it well known even to strangers that I have an instantaneous & volatile temper & that when I shake a Man's hand, look him in the eye and he promises to work on my Mobile Office that he better know there are consequences for any BS.

In my business, I am a professional and don't tolerate any shortcuts or offer false promises, my word is golden.

And by the third instance I was already incensed until on the ninth time I was referred by another Heavy truck company tech to call Bill.


As to calling Bill with a question or two.

Bill is a very humble guy, he doesnt seem to be interested in the profit side of things but only in solving the riddles no-one else can.

To hear him go into tech talk about x & Y Axis, etc with the top tech guys from the big auto manufacturers & others when they call is very impressive, this is all he does, he breathes, lives, dreams of Suspension.

Who else would tell you to drive 500 miles one way to his factory, have it open for you on a Sunday morning and promise you that you will leave satisfied by the afternoon. I emailed him this blog at about 180 posts at the time, he called me back and said he had the answer and before i arrived he would make two sets of coils for me, and at least one of them would work.

And here is the kicker; the new front end Coils including Labour, Powder Coated Painting & Parts only cost me less than $624.

Then the reconditioning of my Rear End including Re-Arching, adding an extra Leaf, adding the Supersprings system, new UBolts, Rivets, Powder Coated Painting etc & Labor cost me less $800 & without asking me, Bill gave a 25% discount.

And then when I returned a month later, he invested another couple of hours at least, eliminating so previous rattles, etc that I had, made me this incredible Heater Fan Diverter Housing that he also powder coated and paint matched like the original Roadtrek Brown (I designed it and he built ot so that the air that comes out of the heating unit doesnt blow directly into the food cupboards and onto the door of the refridgerator but is diverted
under the table that becomes the platform for the bed or if the table is up, is directed around one's legs - I can send you a photo if you wish).

YOU may not get the same deal but it showed me very clearly Bill's business interest; fixing the problems others cannot and helping people.


Hope this helps, very interested in finding out how the new prototypes work out for you Photog.

[Photog]

Update form this weekend of spring installation.

I installed the TuffTruck TCC-1618 prototype springs into the front suspension. These springs are about 2 inches longer than the factory and the TCC-1617 springs. But, they have a lower spring rate. I was hoping the lower spring rate would provide a softer ride on rough roads.

The installation went fine. I had the added work of using a spring compressor, to compress the springs from 19 inches to almost 17 inches. This allowed me to fit them into the allowable space, and begin jacking the suspension back into place.

Based on the driving test, I would say that the softer spring rate provided an improvement to the ride quality.

But, these springs created two new problems.
1) The spring is too tall (free length). It provides too much lift. The TCC1618 spring added 1.75 inches of lift, over what the TCC-1617 springs provided (which was 2 inches). This causes the suspension to hammer the down-travel limiter under the upper control arm. This is a metal-to-metal contact. It is very loud.
2) There is contact between the spring, the upper ball joint and the knuckle, when the suspension reaches the lower travel limits. This is also very noisy, and would eventually cause the spring or the ball joint to fail (break).

I would have removed these spring the next day, but the weather was getting wet. The van is almost un-drivable.

If the springs had been about an inch shorter, they would not have increased the lift over what the TCC-1617 springs provided. This would have allowed the suspension to operate in its normal range. It is also possible the winding diameter of the coil is too large. I didn't measure this before installation, so I'm not sure. It may just be the bow of the coil causing it to reach out and contact the other parts.

Here is the overall view of the mounted spring. The frame is on jack stands, and the suspension is hanging down, at full extension (maximum down-travel).


This is a little closer view of the problem.


And another view of the contact points.

[peteco]

Brian, sorry your new spring didn't work.

I put the 1617 springs in 2 years ago and am generally happy with them. But one thing that always concerned me was how little of the spring seats into the lower control arm. Mexdoc's custom springs look like they seat into the control arm MUCH more than the 1617. It would be interesting to get the full explanation from Bill Erb on this and other thoughts about the spring and front end setup.

Pete
2006 RT210P

[themexicandoctor]

Thanks for the update Brian.

My suggestion; call Bill Erb, no need to buy anything, just ask his advice.

I don't know if your 2008 has differences to my 2004/2005 Chevy.

And you may want to tell him you need a ride suited to corrugated gravel roads AND other conditions.

If anyone knows, Bill does.

Bill loves riddles especially when we are not the only three owners (minus myself) with this dilemma - there has to be hundreds of owners from 170-210's buying undercarriages, fiberglass & dump valves.

[themexicandoctor]

I feel for you Mate.

Not being as gifted as you, I have been looking at the two photos and there seems (to my non-tech eye), a lot of differences with the images side by side.

(by the way, along with air bags and Bill said at best they only give a modest improvement while creating more problems, adding blocks also is a dead end Band-Aid)

Please call Bill, I don't know where you live but this has been going on for 2.5 years for you.

The next two directions are usually Homicide or Sainthood ...

[booster]

Originally Posted by Photog

Update form this weekend of spring installation.

I installed the TuffTruck TCC-1618 prototype springs into the front suspension. These springs are about 2 inches longer than the factory and the TCC-1617 springs. But, they have a lower spring rate. I was hoping the lower spring rate would provide a softer ride on rough roads.

The installation went fine. I had the added work of using a spring compressor, to compress the springs from 19 inches to almost 17 inches. This allowed me to fit them into the allowable space, and begin jacking the suspension back into place.

Based on the driving test, I would say that the softer spring rate provided an improvement to the ride quality.

But, these springs created two new problems.
1) The spring is too tall (free length). It provides too much lift. The TCC1618 spring added 1.75 inches of lift, over what the TCC-1617 springs provided (which was 2 inches). This causes the suspension to hammer the down-travel limiter under the upper control arm. This is a metal-to-metal contact. It is very loud.
2) There is contact between the spring, the upper ball joint and the knuckle, when the suspension reaches the lower travel limits. This is also very noisy, and would eventually cause the spring or the ball joint to fail (break).

I would have removed these spring the next day, but the weather was getting wet. The van is almost un-drivable.

If the springs had been about an inch shorter, they would not have increased the lift over what the TCC-1617 springs provided. This would have allowed the suspension to operate in its normal range. It is also possible the winding diameter of the coil is too large. I didn't measure this before installation, so I'm not sure. It may just be the bow of the coil causing it to reach out and contact the other parts.

Here is the overall view of the mounted spring. The frame is on jack stands, and the suspension is hanging down, at full extension (maximum down-travel).


This is a little closer view of the problem.


And another view of the contact points.

It looks very much like they used the 1617 spring design and just made it longer, with no reduced spring rate. 2" longer/1.75" higher is about what it would be that way.

[AZ ADVenturist]

I suggest a petition be sent to GM, R/trek & whoever designed/supplies this lousy, inadequate suspension system, from all of us who have had to spend lots of extra $$, wasted time & frustration & lost use of our expensive vehicles. They should be able by now to provide a viable solution, a recall or reimbursement.
I gave up chasing half*$$ed solutions a long time ago & still have an unused set of springs in my shed. Like MexDoc I'm p.o'd at all
The run around & frustration. I'd call Bill in no. Cal, but it's to far& I'm already way over budget. My next B camper will not be GM based

[themexicandoctor]

AZ, I still think you can call Bill.

I am using my cell to chicken peck this message out so I am not able to go back and find out what your specific needs are but Bill can probably inform you, and or make & sell you the right set of Coils and have him point you to a reputable company in az to redo your rear.

GM don't give a damn.

Roadtrek won't point the finger at GM.

Its up to us - few people rarely want to use these class b's for our purposes.

[mlts22]

Wow, from reading this, it looks like GM needs to do what Dell did and move their stock private (so they are not under the threat of shareholder lawsuits from the HFT traders for making quarterly numbers), make a big charge-off and start car design from square 1. They have a lot of catching up to do in almost every single market they are in.

What I wonder is how well the new vans from Ford and Dodge will fare for off-roading tasks. I do know the Econolines are decent, enough to hit the "hot tubs" in Moab and not get stuck. Across the pond, Sprinters have 4x4 from the factory, so tend to be decent off-road. Dodge is only doing FWD vans here in the US, so a 4WD conversion will be insanely difficult. I'm sure Transits will be the mainstay for the next generation of SMB and Quigley conversions.