UHG or standard Generator?

[Ken Allan]

Originally Posted by dicktill

What is the Balmar problem? Hadn't heard about that before.

This statement needed some explaining.

The only problem I am aware of is that some builders mounted the balmar just ahead of the left front tire. Terrible access if a fuse blows. Not a dry location. And even balmar mentions that the plug can corrode. Mine did. Balmar got moved to top of engine.

My older Balmar was kinda clunky to re-program when I replaced LFP's. Newer models I think have an app.

[booster]

Originally Posted by Urlauber

Huh... I thought they are just reporting the OBD2 data.

They are, but that is how the PCM calculates the parameters for the engine. AFAIK, none of the vehicles use flowmeters (which aren't all that accurate anyway) for the fuel and compared it odometer miles which also aren't all that accurate.


They use air volume, cylinder volume, rpm etc to calculate it all to set the pulse width for the injectors. From that they can also estimate, not totally accurately, the actual fuel mileage.

[Ken Allan]

My vote is to go modern with UHG and good capacity LFP's. Idling a Promaster does no damage per the Promaster forum's collective knowledge.

I may ruffle some of the generator proponent's feathers but those "quiet" generators that they mention may be quiet INSIDE of their van but they are NOT quiet outside for the rest of us. To be sure, the new units are waaay better than the old ones were.

The drone of AirCons running on "quiet" generators quickly fill a camp area with a low drone. Anyone parked next to you will appreciate less noise...even if it's at a WalMart lot. ---Ken

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by Ken Allan

This statement needed some explaining.

The only problem I am aware of is that some builders mounted the balmar just ahead of the left front tire. Terrible access if a fuse blows. Not a dry location. And even balmar mentions that the plug can corrode. Mine did. Balmar got moved to top of engine.

My older Balmar was kinda clunky to re-program when I replaced LFP's. Newer models I think have an app.

Yes, Roadtrek was putting it inside the fender, so people had to move it up. But there can be issues like blown fuses, corroded wires, and stuff I don't know about. (I've avoided them.) I have stuck with the traditional AGM battery systems because there are few issues. The UGH for AGMs has a built in controller that is never touched by the user. The only issues for us is the rare total death of the alternator or having a wire knocked off when you hit something. I avoided that with the engine guard.

[W9TR]

2020 Thor 20AT here on 2019 Promaster chassis with Onan 2800 generator and 2 100 AH AGM batteries.

I’d go with the UHG. The Promaster engine can idle overnight to run the AC. With a UHG you can add more battery capacity over time.

We have 50,000 miles on the Promaster and 65 hours on the generator. Just don’t use it. Too noisy and smelly.

The Promaster engine is much quieter and pollutes way less.

UHG’s have a checkered service history so do your research on the specific model before you buy.

[RossWilliams]

I would get the UHG but not if you intend to run the air conditioning off it. Your batteries will handle AC for a lunch break and UHG will keep them fully charged. But if you are camping without shore power trying to run the AC off the UHG by idling the engine seems like a bad plan. You might as well use the vehicle AC.

[beauregaard]

Originally Posted by Rlum

The Onan 2800i is pretty quiet. Probably less noisy than most AC units

That's good to hear, but in my experience it would not be hard to be quieter than our overhead AC. I understand the new ones are much quieter.
Regardless...
We have a 2008 Adventurous and both the overhead AC and the propane Onan are so loud as to be practically unusable. Having the Onan directly under the bed doesn't help, likewise with the AC over it. We only use it in extreme conditions or if we're not in the rig.
My biggest gripe with the Onan though, is just the expense of keeping it running. Without a doubt we run it more to "exercise" it than using it to make alternating current. One hour a month under load, not counting warm up and cool down, just to keep it working.
Aside from that, it has also cost us enough to outright buy another one just in repairs. It's also very difficult finding someone to work on it, especially since it's mounted underneath and has to be removed for practically *any* repairs.
I would never consider buying another.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by beauregaard

My biggest gripe with the Onan though, is just the expense of keeping it running. Without a doubt we run it more to "exercise" it than using it to make alternating current. One hour a month under load, not counting warm up and cool down, just to keep it working.
Aside from that, it has also cost us enough to outright buy another one just in repairs. It's also very difficult finding someone to work on it, especially since it's mounted underneath and has to be removed for practically *any* repairs.
I would never consider buying another.

That mirrors my experience. Except that mine never had to be removed for service. And why I swore to never have another.

[JonMN]

I have a 2022 with the Onan 2800i generator. If I was to choose between a second alternator and the generator, for us the second alternator and lithium might have been best.

The 2800i is REALLY quiet. The generator itself is mounted on 3 rubber mounts inside the case, and the whole assembly is hung from 4 more rubber mounts. You can barely hear it when it's running, and only if you have nothing else running inside. If the AC is on you don't notice the generator at all. Outside it's not quite as quiet. It's louder than idling the chassis engine but only until the electric fan on the engine kicks into high mode.

Personally, if I was in an area hot enough to need more A/C than the batteries could handle I would rather run a $3000 generator than idle my $17,000 engine. But I don't see us getting into this situation.

To me the main annoyance of the generator is that it is yet another gas engine to maintain, and, being under the van, it's a bit of a pain to access. Just built some ramps that make this way easier.

We have not boondocked yet, and generator use has been very minimal. It was handy when we had a long stay at a VRBO to recharge the batteries.

I anticipate changing my 330ah AGM to a 300AH lithium. But even with the AGM I can run our 12v A/C for 90 minutes--easily enough time for relaxing at a rest stop on a trip.

PS: Kudos to the marketer that came up with underhood generator as an alternative to second generator. Sounds way more impressive. I remember when we were looking at Class Bs the first time and looking under the hood for an actual generator!

[avanti]

Originally Posted by JonMN

Personally, if I was in an area hot enough to need more A/C than the batteries could handle I would rather run a $3000 generator than idle my $17,000 engine.

Not sure I see the logic here. It is an empirical question which of those alternatives is better. Just hypothetically, if running a given generator wore it out quickly, but idling the engine did no appreciable harm, it would be better to do the latter (and vice versa, of course), replacement costs notwithstanding.

The fact is that some engines tolerate idling just fine, and others don't.

[booster]

Originally Posted by avanti

Not sure I see the logic here. It is an empirical question which of those alternatives is better. Just hypothetically, if running a given generator wore it out quickly, but idling the engine did no appreciable harm, it would be better to do the latter (and vice versa, of course), replacement costs notwithstanding.

The fact is that some engines tolerate idling just fine, and others don't.

Yep, the idling is always a big question for most of us.


I watch the used vehicles on Craigslist regularly, and there are quite a few ex cop cars showing up there.


Many times they list the miles on the vehicle and the idling hours as they all seem to have idle hour meters in them, presumably for the maintenance intervals.


Some of the vehicles have 100-150K miles and many thousands of idling hours on them so the idling didn't seem to kill them off.


Of course they are all gas engines.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by booster

they all seem to have idle hour meters in them, presumably for the maintenance intervals.

Transits have idle-hour monitoring as standard equipment. Built into the driver's information menu.

[JonMN]

Just adding my Onan repair story . . .

On one of our trips I hit some larger than expected bumps on the freeway. When I got home I noticed that I had broken two brackets in the body of the generator. Still worked fine, as these were kind of a hold down bracket, not the main motor mounts. (Ironically, they are called "failsafe brackets.") They made them out of cast aluminum so I'm not surprised they broke.

Used my borescope to take photos of the brackets without taking anything apart. Tracked down the parts number and found that they do not sell them!!

So then I went to warranty service since it's only a year old. They wanted the RV a day early to diagnose the problem. Hey, I've got photos and part numbers--what's left to diagnose?? Then another week to get parts; if they can get them.

Luckily I have a decent shop at home. So rather than doing this, I just bought some aluminum angle iron, cut to fit, drilled and tapped as needed, and fixed it myself.

Just lowered the generator on a ATV jack. It was installed with enough extra wire that I did not even need to disconnect anything to replace to raise the top and replace the two brackets. Took about an hour.

[mumkin]

Originally Posted by JonMN

PS: Kudos to the marketer that came up with underhood generator as an alternative to second generator. Sounds way more impressive. I remember when we were looking at Class Bs the first time and looking under the hood for an actual generator!

They had been around for awhile in police cars and ambulances. I am surprised that it took so long for an RV converter to come up with the idea of using it. I do believe that it was Roadtrek and Nations Starter in Missouri that were the first. They were the first that I heard of...

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by JonMN

PS: Kudos to the marketer that came up with underhood generator as an alternative to second generator. Sounds way more impressive. I remember when we were looking at Class Bs the first time and looking under the hood for an actual generator!

I've known them as second alternators from the start as Advanced RV was putting them in since 2012 I think well ahead of Roadtrek. 2012 because Advanced RV didn't exist before then. They started out with Nations but in 2014 they went to the Delco 330 which is much more robust. I started out with a Nations in my 2014 van but had to Delco installed shortly after.

I had both the Nations and Delco-Remy second alternator (or auxiliary alternator) in the same van. I believe one of the few if any others.

My testing the Delco alternator on the Natchez Trace is in the comments of this YouTube post in 2016 repeated here. You can watch the YouTube video for the explanation of the many differences.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XANYxoEF_HY

"I had the new Delco-Remy alternator installed on my then 15 month old Advanced RV in May. It makes a world of difference. It runs cooler and quieter as mentioned in the video. Also, it's output charging is much higher and does not degenerate with heat. To test this, I ran my 800ah lithium ion battery bank down to about a 256ah SOC deficit. I drove on the most consistent road possible, the non-stop 50 mph Natchez Trace. The battery bank recharged to 100% SOC charge in 1 hr and 2 minutes. Driving faster on interstate highways could have produced over 300 amps and faster charging. The charge rate settled in at about 280 amps per hour charge rate and held that until 95% SOC. Then the Balmar voltage regulator started "braking" the charge rate steadily down to 0 when fully charged. In comparison, my former Nations alternator would charge at around 220 amps initially and would have dropped down to around 180 amps and lower after about 30 minutes. The Nations alternator easily recharged an overnight's use of electricity in well under an hour and usually about a half hour and we drove more than that almost daily. What Advanced RV reported was more extreme users in the south and southwest driving in summer high heat were experiencing a battery deficit in that the Nations alternator was producing less energy than a turned on house air conditioner was producing. In other words a battery "death spiral" as it was put to me and most likely, I imagine, arriving at a campsite with less than 100% SOC and putting a lot of stress on the alternator. Customer feedback drove this. I haven't encountered those driving conditions where I felt I needed to run my house air conditioner but appreciate the improvements, quietness and anticipated better reliability nevertheless.

There is a movement in the Class B camper van group to travel free from being tethered to campground hookups as much as possible.The under hood second alternator is one piece that makes it possible much more so than the traditional Onan generator. Larger battery banks, especially LifeP04 batteries of 400ah or more and a high capacity inverter (2800w in my case) make it possible to drive and camp 24/7 transparently no different than if one is hooked up to shore power. In other words all your 120VAC outlets, microwave, induction cooktop, Keurig coffee maker, air conditioning, etc. are always available and you don't have to run an internal combustion engine to use them. This means you can stop anywhere you desire that is legal and not disturb anyone running an engine be it your vehicle or Onan. Cost too much? My answer is priceless."

My current Delco alternator shown in this photo that hangs down under the front bumper. The Nations didn't do that and I think it doesn't fit in a Promaster.

[Rlum]

Underhood generator with Ram Promaster. I have a Ram Promaster and read many postings regarding long term idling and it's impact on engine life. Here is a link to a class action suit regarding this issue. So be careful if you are using your Promaster engine UHG to charge your house battery?

https://www.classaction.org/news/hea...ngine-problems

[Davydd]

That class action suit a design flaw in the engine with the Promaster. With any engine there is a life to it and it is not infinity. Moving parts eventually wear out. So any idling of any engine will affect that life. The Sprinter's limiting idling is not the concern of the engine but the emissions system. Diesels are assumed to have more engine life that gas engines.

Sprinter emission DEF control and the dire warnings and consequences was the knock of diesels. The VS30 Sprinters (2019+) have greatly improved those controls and you would have to just be stupid not to heed them. They've made filling DEF easier by moving the filler up to the grill with a spill cup to the ground and eliminating the dip stick checking. On the instrument screen you can visually monitor the depletion of DEF and it gives a warning when it is half down (2.5 gallons) with no countdown. At some point you do get the count down warning but you have 500 miles to refill with DEF. I can live with that. I heed the first warning to refill and purchase the standard 2.5 gallon DEF container. Easy peasy no brainer operation.

That is different than the previous Sprinter model which you had to periodically check with a dip stick and the dire warnings came as a surprise with a panicking count down.

Mercedes Benz still say you can only idle 2 hours before driving 40 minutes between because of the emission controls. I don't know how that is handled but ARV sets it and you can't abuse it with their Autostart controls that only go a tad less than 2 hours idling with shutdown or you can set anytime you desire under 2 hours. The only debit then is you can't idle overnight but they now have an in house developed 48v lithium battery system (not Volta) I believe where you can run an air conditioner overnight.

[Davydd]

I'm rethinking this air conditioning thing in light of this summer's heat wave. I don't know how you can survive without shore power in most of the country. Even Minnesota this week we had 90 degree temperatures at 10:30 PM. Following the practice of 70 degrees would not be doable this year in the summer.

I built my timber frame house with a heat sink mass and no air conditioning in 1983 and it worked for many years until we sold it in 2017. In that time it no longer worked as planned. I was partially dependent on Minnesota's ground temperature of 57 degrees in the summer and that is evidently changing. It was an all electric zero energy house both summer and winter when I designed it.

[mumkin]

That Delco alternator wouldn't fit in the Promaster. Very little space under that hood and the Nations already hangs awfully low down near the passenger side tire. Quite a few have wiped it out on high curbs. Like many, I invested in the Edge Vanworks engine cover to help protect it.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

That is different than the previous Sprinter model which you had to periodically check with a dip stick and the dire warnings came as a surprise with a panicking count down.

No Sprinter DEF system has ever had a "dip stick". They always gave "refill DEF fluid" warnings when there was still time to avoid the countdown to no start. The countdowns were an absurd design, but they did not just pop up unexpectedly. As an owner of a MY2014 diesel Sprinter, I can attest to this first hand. I'm sure it is true that the new ones have nicer interfaces.

I know of no good evidence that the Sprinter DEF system has become any more reliable over time. The interfaces may have changed, but as far as I know, the actual operational systems are largely unchanged.