RoadTrek's EcoTrek

[eurovanman]

This is funny, and disconcerting.

[markopolo]

It's good of them to even consider doing retrofits. We all know how much time and effort it takes to renovate or redo anything. Their business is to produce new Class B's and sell them through a dealer network. That has to remain #1 on the priority list.

A retrofit is potentially a lost sale of a brand new unit so keeping everyone happy, the dealers & previous Roadtrek purchasers won't be easy.

I'm not commenting on the technology and its value in this post because I don't yet know what exactly is being offered.

We all know this tech stuff continually gets better and usually more affordable.

[rectalogic]

Looks like the EcoTrek 800 is a $24K option - that's the whole package including solar and engine generator.

http://americanrv.com/sites/american...iles/10324.pdf

Meanwhile 24M just came out of stealth the other day with their semisolid lithium manufacturing technology that should fundamentally change the cost structure of the Li-ion industry over the 2 years or so.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdet...gh-technology/

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by rectalogic

Looks like the EcoTrek 800 is a $24K option - that's the whole package including solar and engine generator.

http://americanrv.com/sites/american...iles/10324.pdf

Meanwhile 24M just came out of stealth the other day with their semisolid lithium manufacturing technology that should fundamentally change the cost structure of the Li-ion industry over the 2 years or so.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/peterdet...gh-technology/

I think I have enough knowledge now to know lithium ion batteries have to be part of a whole system and there will be no cheap solutions to the total energy independence Jim Hammill espouses. Cheaper lithium ion technology cutting 50% of the cost of batteries would drop the total system cost down to what, maybe $21,000?

As for the Forbes article on 24M I think the last sentence is the giveaway. Of course technology historically gets better and cheaper but how long do you want to wait?

"24M will be worth watching in the [b]years to come[b]."

The discussion of this thread in my view is what Roadtrek is doing today and its effect on the Class B market. Heck, some companies are still too reluctant to even offer a second lead-acid battery option.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Cheaper lithium ion technology cutting 50% of the cost of batteries would drop the total system cost down to what, maybe $21,000?

Yes, but the price of the other components will drop, too. Early entrants in a new market expect and receive a premium for their then-unique capabilities. But soon, the rapid-followers show up and prices of everything plummet.

[Davydd]

Originally Posted by avanti

Yes, but the price of the other components will drop, too. Early entrants in a new market expect and receive a premium for their then-unique capabilities. But soon, the rapid-followers show up and prices of everything plummet.

Everything else are common items that have been around for years plus a lot of labor. Labor that is never going to come down. The B market or even a whole RV market is not going to drive the cost of components down. I doubt efficiency in production with such low volumes (even Roadtrek) is going to drive costs down appreciably. The cost of Class B RVs have risen dramatically so much recently that there is not much of a track record of seeing costs drop other than a general belief that lithium ion batteries will come down in cost and as I pointed out is really just a small component of the overall cost. Still, since they all mostly come from China there may not a lot of wiggle room there, Tesla and 24M aside.

Of course the ecoTrek cost I would think would or could be balanced with the elimination of the AGM batteries, an Onan generator, and the entire propane system. Also, the ETreks already have some built in components such as the engine generator, inverter/charger and solar. So, the question, what is the $24,000 upcharge? What is it compared to?

[booster]

I think the raise in B prices is mostly just because they have been able to do it, justifying with obscure improvements and high margin glitz. When Roadtrek 190s are over $108K and and 210s over $115K, the whole thing is out of control IMO. The same companies are making similar models, so they shouldn't have gotten less efficient. Winnebago has shown you can build less expensively, I think you could even say ARV is more efficient than Roadtrek when look at what you get for your money, at least at MSRP. If there is a 20+% discount like the Ecotrek 210 that was posted that changes, a bit though.

I think the lithium battery pricing is similar-they have it high because they can. Roadtrek is famous for high price stuff, especially newer options, that are often not totally top of the line (no name inverters for instance).

I think there is a business model for someone like Tesla, Magnum, Outback, to address the RV market with an integrated package of everything needed to have a complete, modern, lithium or other, system. Especially now that the batteries don't need access, and sidepods are gone pretty much, single box systems would be quite easy. Hook up 12v inputs, 110 inputs, 12 and 110v outputs, remote cat5 and be done.

Most folks would be surprised how much cost can be taken out of a manufacturing process. At most of the places I have worked at we were able to get to at least 30% reduction, without reducing wages or using lower quality parts. I think that is the major reason Winnebago has such a price advantage-they know what they are doing. I want to get to the new factory for a tour of the B production, as it usually very obvious if they are running near max efficiency, lowest manufacturing cost.

[avanti]

Originally Posted by Davydd

Everything else are common items that have been around for years plus a lot of labor. Labor that is never going to come down. The B market or even a whole RV market is not going to drive the cost of components down. I doubt efficiency in production with such low volumes (even Roadtrek) is going to drive costs down appreciably.

The comment I was replying to was your claim that lithium systems would not come down much. Your response seems to be about B-vans in general. I agree that the RV industry is insignificant, but lots of other people are interested in such technology. The prices will come down dramatically in coming years.