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Old 12-19-2017, 10:31 AM   #1
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Default Lithium/Alternator/Inverter Package from Xantrex

Xantrex has developed a Lithium/Alternator/Inverter Package that is now available on the 2018 Coachmen Galleria Li3. Package includes a 600 AH Battery, 250 AMP Alternator and a 3000 watt Pure Sine Wave Inverter. I'll be attending the Tampa Show January 17-21 and gather info/specs/pricing. My first question will be if there are plans to make the Package available for Authorized installation in existing Coaches. IMO, this is a Game-Changer 😀
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Old 12-19-2017, 01:28 PM   #2
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I'll be attending the Tampa Show January 17-21 and gather info/specs/pricing.
I have seen the Galleria order form and this is a $21,000 option.
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Old 12-19-2017, 01:34 PM   #3
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Just my 2 cents,
I would not hold my breath waiting.

I doubt CM will make it a retrofit option.

You might be able to get a similar package from an upfitter shop,
but not from the CM.

The reason is simple -- why bother?
What is in it for them?
It is a lot of work to tear up the interior to install the new system.

I cannot see it as a worthwhile proposition for a factory operation that has a production routine and a demanding schedule.

CM is in the business of making new coaches,
not tearing up old ones.
There is a lot of risks to assume when dealing with an used RV.

A custom upfitter shop or Li/Solar shop would welcome such a retrofit project.
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Old 12-19-2017, 01:59 PM   #4
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Does anyone have any information on how they handle the cold? They say usable to -4*F, but we all know that would be discharge only with charging to 32*. Are there heaters and how are they run if they are there? Can the batteries be easily removed for cold storage, or do you need a lithium condo like ARV, as -4 is not even cold around here and it is the now often stated cold storage damage point? Cold and hot seem to be the biggest weaknesses of lithium for those of us in the north, after cost of course.
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Old 12-19-2017, 05:03 PM   #5
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Even at 21k, it's close to what roadtrek charges and the quality parts will be night and day better. While 21k sounds expensive, the sum of the parts are approaching 21k. Xantrex makes rock solid parts as does lithionics. It's really nice to see high quality parts for a setup like these compared to roadtrek's in house BMS that's power hungry and cheap re-branded AIMS inverters.

Can you design a similar system yourself a lot cheaper? Hell yes. In fact, you could probably design the exact same system using the same parts:

600AH lithionic battery: $9500
Nation's Second Alternator with regulator: $2200
Xantrex Freedom SW 3000 with remote/combox/monitor: $2500

Not sure if solar is included in their 21k price tag or not.

But people in the market for a 6 figure class b probably don't want to mess with installing a system like this on their own.
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Old 12-19-2017, 05:06 PM   #6
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Does anyone have any information on how they handle the cold? They say usable to -4*F, but we all know that would be discharge only with charging to 32*. Are there heaters and how are they run if they are there? Can the batteries be easily removed for cold storage, or do you need a lithium condo like ARV, as -4 is not even cold around here and it is the now often stated cold storage damage point? Cold and hot seem to be the biggest weaknesses of lithium for those of us in the north, after cost of course.
My guess is they can't handle the cold as they've listed their operating temps. However I doubt the van would be subject to that cold of temps while you are operating the van as I believe the battery is installed inside the van to keep it out of the cold. So if you heat up the van to provide yourself with warmth the battery should be warmed up as well.

As for cold storage and removing the battery, that shouldn't be needed as the BMS will disconnect charging loads at freezing and I assume all other loads at -4. The battery weighs 150lbs so I don't think it's meant to be moved that often.
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Old 12-19-2017, 05:10 PM   #7
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The latest information, via ARV and others, is that the lithium batteries can't stand to be STORED, even disconnected, at below -4*F without damage, which can be a very big deal in the north.

Here is a link to the Lithionics site about storage requirements

http://lithionicsbattery.com/wp-cont...cations-R0.pdf
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Old 12-19-2017, 05:11 PM   #8
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Right now, for the Transit, the house batteries are under the chassis, on the outside, below the driver's and passenger's seats.

Not sure where would they put them inside the coach.
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Old 12-19-2017, 05:34 PM   #9
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The latest information, via ARV and others, is that the lithium batteries can't stand to be STORED, even disconnected, at below -4*F without damage, which can be a very big deal in the north.

Here is a link to the Lithionics site about storage requirements

http://lithionicsbattery.com/wp-cont...cations-R0.pdf
Interesting. I guess I never looked into it much as I don't get down that cold around here. I've always read with no load or charge you should be fine, but that may be incorrect.

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.

Right now, for the Transit, the house batteries are under the chassis, on the outside, below the driver's and passenger's seats.

Not sure where would they put them inside the coach.
My guess would be under the bed, under either seat in the back, inside one of the cabinets, there are a lot of options on where this can go. It's a big battery for sure, but it's a VERY long van.

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Old 12-19-2017, 07:47 PM   #10
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At -4 degrees F the LiFePO batteries can be damaged if they are allowed to reach that temperature or below. Advanced RV installs 12V electric heating pads sandwiched between batteries designed to keep them above 41F at all times so they can accept a charge at all times. The pads draw 10 amps or 240 amps in a 24 hour period. I haven't experienced them to come on until the temperature drops to about 20F ambient and it can still be intermittent. At -20F ambient to heating pads couldn't maintain the batteries 42F. For those anticipated conditions ARV now installs more heat. So as long as you maintain a charge the batteries themselves will supply the heat but the obvious solution in storage is to provide shore power to keep the batteries charged. While underway and traveling the second alternator provides charging and restores 240 amps in about an hour of driving. I have gone a week on the road where the temperature was constantly below freezing 24/7 and got down to a -5F.
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Old 12-19-2017, 08:12 PM   #11
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Sounds like a lot of hassle for someone in the cold.

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Old 12-19-2017, 08:22 PM   #12
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.

Sounds like a lot of hassle for someone in the cold.

Sorta, yea. I have lithium in a DIY camper van and I've wired up a relay to disconnect my charging sources when it hits 35 F (made a post about it here: http://www.classbforum.com/forums/f2...ries-7202.html ). I have a secondary relay on my thermostat where I can wire up 12v heating pads. I have 400ah in 4 groups so I'm think I could buy 4 25W heating pads and have them turn on at 0 F. Where I live I think they would never turn on, but for around $20 from amazon, it sounds like it's worth it to prevent damage.
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Old 12-19-2017, 08:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
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.

Sounds like a lot of hassle for someone in the cold.

My explanation? Actually it is hassle free hands off.
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Old 12-19-2017, 08:56 PM   #14
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Sounds like a lot of hassle for someone in the cold.

The more I learn about the realities of Li batteries, the more glad I am that I decided not to go that route.
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Old 12-19-2017, 10:12 PM   #15
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As the infamous Donald Rumsfeld said, "we don't know what we don't know", which I think applies to all kinds of new stuff, including the lithium batteries in RVs. Will they make their predicted life? Will cold or hot kill some off? Whatever else might come up?

I just happened across this a few minutes ago,

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/h...431728875.html

7 years old, 43K miles, Minnesota cold weather. Lithium pack down to 65%. Typical, who knows, but I hope not.
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Old 12-19-2017, 11:38 PM   #16
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Default Lithium/Alternator/Inverter Package from Xantrex

Quote:
Originally Posted by booster View Post
As the infamous Donald Rumsfeld said, "we don't know what we don't know", which I think applies to all kinds of new stuff, including the lithium batteries in RVs. Will they make their predicted life? Will cold or hot kill some off? Whatever else might come up?

I just happened across this a few minutes ago,

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/h...431728875.html

7 years old, 43K miles, Minnesota cold weather. Lithium pack down to 65%. Typical, who knows, but I hope not.

Ya - I'm convinced EVs just won't work well in cold climates like Minnesota. Hybrids are the only workable solution.

I could live with current RV LiFePO battery cold climate limitations here in the moderate weather of Maryland. But then I've been know to drive my van to Minnesota in February. It was -17F overnight the last time I did it. I'd just have to plug in the battery heaters like I did for my Wolverine pad heater on engine.

Does anyone know if the Volta battery pack that Advanced RV is testing will be more tolerant of the cold. I understand it uses a more advanced Li chemistry.

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Old 12-20-2017, 01:10 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by booster View Post
As the infamous Donald Rumsfeld said, "we don't know what we don't know", which I think applies to all kinds of new stuff, including the lithium batteries in RVs. Will they make their predicted life? Will cold or hot kill some off? Whatever else might come up?

I just happened across this a few minutes ago,

https://minneapolis.craigslist.org/h...431728875.html

7 years old, 43K miles, Minnesota cold weather. Lithium pack down to 65%. Typical, who knows, but I hope not.
The Leaf syndrome has less to do with cold weather impact and more to do with the fact that it employed no thermal management at all.
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Old 12-20-2017, 01:29 AM   #18
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My first question will be if there are plans to make the Package available for Authorized installation in existing Coaches.
IMO, the answer is: no. The question worth asking is whether they plan to expand the lithium option to the Crosstrek.
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Old 12-20-2017, 02:42 AM   #19
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Since I got the first build of Advanced RV's Lithium Ion 800ah battery design exactly 3 years ago, I can tell you it has performed well with no noticeable drop off after 58,000 miles of RVing. I've enjoyed what no one else has contributing on this thread has for the past three years, not the future. And it has been in extreme Minnesota cold weather.

Has anyone else traveled a whole week in weather mostly under 20F 24/7 and camped in overnight temperatures of mostly 0 to 5 degrees F. without shore power? Did so three years ago the first week I had the B from Cleveland to Minnesota to Arizona all the way to Albuquerque, NM at a Cracker Barrel when it was 0 degrees F. overnight.

That's not conjecture, speculation, opinion or you don't know. I know what I know. That's fact. I've enjoyed the technology for THREE YEARS.
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Old 12-20-2017, 03:07 AM   #20
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I have seen the Galleria order form and this is a $21,000 option.
This is a terrific option but the cost needs to come down to earth.

You overlooked something that's easy to miss. Yes, the Li3 option shows as $21,600 on the order form but what doesn't jump out at you is that the Li3 option results in the deletion of the 2000w inverter, the 300ah 8D Relion AGM, the Gen start module and Autostart, all of which is included in the required Electronics Pkg. plus the deletion of the Onan 2.5kw LP generator included in the required Convenience Pkg. Since you get no credit for these deletions, the actual Li3 premium is closer to $26,000-$27,000 which IMO is exorbitant

Retail for the Nations alternator + Balmar regulator is about $1200. The Lithionics 600ah battery + BMS retails for about $8,000. The Xantrex 3000w inverter and system control panel is about $2,500. Throw in $300 for copper etc and you're looking at a total of around $12,000.
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