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Old 05-21-2020, 12:56 AM   #1
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Default Upgrade to lithium

Hello,
I have a 2019 Roadtrek Simplicity...3500 Dodge Promaster body.
My van has the underhood generator, and I have 300 watts of solar panels up top.
Currently I have only 1 100ah AGM battery.
I've had the unfortunate experience of the battery being drained overnight, and if its a cloudy day, then the solar panels are not very effective.
I would really like to be able to install 2 Battle Borne 100 ah batteries inside the van...however if that wouldn't work out, then would it be possible to just remove the existing AGM battery and install 1 Battle Borne 100 ah battery in its place ?
I've read some articles that the underhood generator ( UG ) may need special attention.
I'm not an electrical engineer, so if anyone has solutions or suggestions, please keep it simple.
Thank you,
Larry
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Old 05-21-2020, 02:58 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1212 View Post
Hello,
I have a 2019 Roadtrek Simplicity...3500 Dodge Promaster body.
My van has the underhood generator, and I have 300 watts of solar panels up top.
Currently I have only 1 100ah AGM battery.
Depends on what your temperature environments are for camping and storage. Define those and you can solve the rest.
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Old 05-21-2020, 04:49 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry1212 View Post
Hello,
I have a 2019 Roadtrek Simplicity...3500 Dodge Promaster body.
My van has the underhood generator, and I have 300 watts of solar panels up top.
Currently I have only 1 100ah AGM battery.
I've had the unfortunate experience of the battery being drained overnight, and if its a cloudy day, then the solar panels are not very effective.
I would really like to be able to install 2 Battle Borne 100 ah batteries inside the van...however if that wouldn't work out, then would it be possible to just remove the existing AGM battery and install 1 Battle Borne 100 ah battery in its place ?
I've read some articles that the underhood generator ( UG ) may need special attention.
I'm not an electrical engineer, so if anyone has solutions or suggestions, please keep it simple.
Thank you,
Larry

Welcome to the forum Larry!


Other Simplicity owners will weight in with better info. than I can offer. But the short answer is that the Battleborns will need proper charging. To get this, you'll need to update to lithium compatible charging components if you do not already have them.

I did this by replacing my inverter/charger and adding a DC to DC charger between my lithium coach batteries and my engine battery since they were different typs after my conversion. I relocated the batteries inside. If you have space to do this for two Battleborns, then you can upgrade.

Do you know if your current charger and under hood generator have a lithium setting? If so, you'll be way ahead. Still, 2 Battleborns are nearly $2 grand.
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Old 05-21-2020, 01:55 PM   #4
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Larry - approximately 400Ah of AGM batteries would store enough energy to permit several days off grid and no driving even with a compressor type fridge. Those several days could be low solar input days.

Costs would most probably be similar to buying single 100Ah Battleborn conversion if factoring in the purchase of a necessary DC-DC charge controller to limit current from the 2nd alternator to the Battleborn battery and also factoring in a possible alternator regulator upgrade to one with a lithium profile.

Because the 2nd alternator is basis of your "generator" limiting output from it isn't ideal. That's why AGM's seem to be the better choice in this case.

Forum member Booster has 300W solar, dual alternators and a compressor fridge in his Chevy based Roadtrek and has done the testing & actual off grid use to confirm that his setup works great.

From a previous topic:

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Originally Posted by booster View Post
We have 440ah of AGM and 300 watts of solar, plus engine generator in a C190P Chevy Roadtrek. We would have power use similar to yours except we use the microwave instead an electric cooker. We do have a compressor frig.

We can go indefinitely offgrid if we have good sun as we normally use 30-60ah per day and the solar can do up to about 90ah per day in good sun.

Without any sun or driving we can go 5-7 days off grid.
The question now is can 400Ah or so of AGM batteries be fitted under your van.

This topic - https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...rade-4007.html - gives an idea of what custom made battery mount would look like. You'd have to adapt the ideas to work with a Promaster van.
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Old 05-28-2020, 06:50 PM   #5
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Default Best option

You have an even better option than the Battle Born 100Ah units. Go to 150Ah in same size with Ohmmu Energy. They are in Tempe, AZ and their Gen.2 has 150Ah in Group 31 size!
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Old 05-31-2020, 07:15 PM   #6
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I have a 2019 simplicity with UHG and I added 300 watts of solar. The Inverter already has a lithium setting and my UHG module that is hanging under the steering wheel was already the wrong one. It is for Lithium. The only difference is the Lithium one causes the engine to start at 1 V lower discharge than the AGM. I use a buck converter to raise the 12v input wire up 1 volt to trick it into working correct with my AGM, you would have to do the opposite.
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Old 05-31-2020, 07:46 PM   #7
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I was just on Ohmmu's site and the largest battery I saw listed were 40 A/H Li batteries intended for replacement in certain Tesla, Nissan Leaf and Chevrolet Bolt systems. There was absolutely no reference to larger batteries for other applications. The 40 A/H batteries were around $500...not a bargain.
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Old 05-31-2020, 07:51 PM   #8
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https://www.ohmmu.com/group31
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Old 05-31-2020, 09:26 PM   #9
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My Banff, made by the same company and on a Promaster 2500, has an AGM and two lithium iron batteries all mounted underneath. It makes more sense to mount them down there than to use interior space, if I understand correctly what you are asking. When fully charged, I get 3 or 4 days without turning on the UG. That is mostly running the refrigerator and not much else. I have two solar panels on top, but, as a Hymer tech told me, they don't provide much more than a trickle charge. I'm waiting for a decent propane fuel cell to come on the market so that I can go for a week or more. While you can wire all this yourself if you feel capable, otherwise I recommend finding a good tech to do it as it's easy to get it wrong, as Hymer did, such as wiring to the wrong terminal and not getting the Balmer settings right. My tech in California, also moved the Balmer to a higher and safer location and installed a steel plate under some engine parts. Newer lithium batteries come with protection to prevent overcharging.
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Old 05-31-2020, 10:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
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This 150 amp hour battery is really more than 150 amp hours since the site says that is a 10 hour rating. Maybe I missed something.
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Old 06-01-2020, 11:24 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Bud View Post
This 150 amp hour battery is really more than 150 amp hours since the site says that is a 10 hour rating. Maybe I missed something.
Probably not noticeable if comparing 10hr & 20hr capacity ratings.

Maybe a bit more if using the 100 hr rate instead for example but no where near noticeable as the difference between the 10hr and 100hr rating would be with a lead acid battery.

The weight of the ohmmu battery is listed as 34lbs with a capacity of 2kWh.

Quote:
Our Gen 2 Group 31 packs a massive 150Ah (~2kWh) per battery in a lightweight 34 lbs package. It’s the most capacity out of a Group 31 battery, ever!
The gravimetric energy density (including the case) is 2kWh / 15.4221kg = 129.6840 Wh/kg

Trojan's Group 27 Trillium for comparison:

https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/da...m_12.8-110.pdf

Again, including the case, 1.4kWh / 14kg = 100 Wh/kg.

Trojan supplies the 10hr and 20hr rate capacities so no guessing needed: 110Ah at 10hr rate & 111Ah at 20hr rate.


Edit: just adding the following


Energy density info from Lithionics: https://lithionicsbattery.com/wp-con...12V100A-R0.pdf

from the pdf
Battleborn: 88Wh/kg
Lithionics G31: 105Wh/kg

from a previous post
Trojan Trillium: 100Wh/kg

from Renogy -
https://www.renogy.com/content/files...anual_V1.0.pdf

50Ah battery 95.5Wh/kg
100Ah battery 100.4Wh/kg
170Ah battery 103.6Wh/kg

The ohmmu's 129.6840 Wh/kg is so much higher that a request for a datasheet on the cells used should be step 1 if considering them IMO.
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Old 06-01-2020, 11:53 AM   #12
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Hi: I am in Los Angeles County, Ca. Would you mind sharing your electrical technician with us. I am looking for a good RV electrician to help with my projects.

Thanks
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Old 06-01-2020, 03:17 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by markopolo View Post
Probably not noticeable if comparing 10hr & 20hr capacity ratings.

Maybe a bit more if using the 100 hr rate instead for example but no where near noticeable as the difference between the 10hr and 100hr rating would be with a lead acid battery.

The weight of the ohmmu battery is listed as 34lbs with a capacity of 2kWh.

The gravimetric energy density (including the case) is 2kWh / 15.4221kg = 129.6840 Wh/kg

Trojan's Group 27 Trillium for comparison:

https://www.trojanbattery.com/pdf/da...m_12.8-110.pdf

Again, including the case, 1.4kWh / 14kg = 100 Wh/kg.

Trojan supplies the 10hr and 20hr rate capacities so no guessing needed: 110Ah at 10hr rate & 111Ah at 20hr rate.


Edit: just adding the following


Energy density info from Lithionics: https://lithionicsbattery.com/wp-con...12V100A-R0.pdf

from the pdf
Battleborn: 88Wh/kg
Lithionics G31: 105Wh/kg

from a previous post
Trojan Trillium: 100Wh/kg

from Renogy -
https://www.renogy.com/content/files...anual_V1.0.pdf

50Ah battery 95.5Wh/kg
100Ah battery 100.4Wh/kg
170Ah battery 103.6Wh/kg

The ohmmu's 129.6840 Wh/kg is so much higher that a request for a datasheet on the cells used should be step 1 if considering them IMO.


Sorry, I left too much out of my post. I did not have the Trojan comparison in mind, just the simple statement on their primary site of 150 amps with no mention of the 10 hour rating.

Sure enjoyed your response though and thanks.

Bud
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Old 06-02-2020, 09:16 PM   #14
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Thanks Jim, It looks like Battleborn might have some serious competition. I will be interesting to see if we get any further feedback.
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Old 06-03-2020, 12:32 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by stevegoldfield View Post
My Banff, made by the same company and on a Promaster 2500, has an AGM and two lithium iron batteries all mounted underneath.
I would be interested in how you or the RV manages the split between the AGM and Lithium batteries. I am considering different approaches for upgrading my battery storage, one of which would be a split of AGM and Lithium. Are all batteries of the same voltage and on the same charger? Do you disconnect the Lithium batteries in colder weather?
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Old 06-03-2020, 02:58 AM   #16
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hbn7hj has done extensive work developing a hybrid system that effectively combines those technologies. Booster has also commented on his work. I can't remember the exact threads. But it can be successfully done. Google this forum................or perhaps hbn7hj or booster can chime in with a link to the threads I can't remember.
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Old 06-03-2020, 05:20 AM   #17
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Originally Posted by JohnnyCLE View Post
I would be interested in how you or the RV manages the split between the AGM and Lithium batteries. I am considering different approaches for upgrading my battery storage, one of which would be a split of AGM and Lithium. Are all batteries of the same voltage and on the same charger? Do you disconnect the Lithium batteries in colder weather?
You cannot join them together. Use an A-B-Both-Off battery switch. We used the lithium to charge the FLA through a DC to DC charger. Can't remember the actual experiment other than there was no benefit to it. Once you put the switch in you can try it yourself. Lithium batteries belong inside a coach. Insulated with a heater is an unnecessary option, in my opinion. Remember at the beginning of this thread was a request to define the temperatures you would be dealing with.

They use separate chargers.

https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...stem-8526.html
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Old 06-03-2020, 01:24 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnnyCLE View Post
I would be interested in how you or the RV manages the split between the AGM and Lithium batteries. I am considering different approaches for upgrading my battery storage, one of which would be a split of AGM and Lithium. Are all batteries of the same voltage and on the same charger? Do you disconnect the Lithium batteries in colder weather?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbn7hj View Post
You cannot join them together. Use an A-B-Both-Off battery switch. We used the lithium to charge the FLA through a DC to DC charger. Can't remember the actual experiment other than there was no benefit to it. Once you put the switch in you can try it yourself. Lithium batteries belong inside a coach. Insulated with a heater is an unnecessary option, in my opinion. Remember at the beginning of this thread was a request to define the temperatures you would be dealing with.

They use separate chargers.

https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...stem-8526.html
I have both AGM and Lithium installed and working. My setup is reversed from @hbn7hj - I use the AGM to charge the Lithium via a Redarc B2B. Like @hbn7hj I use an A/B to decide which battery bank to use for the load.

https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...html#post97460

https://www.classbforum.com/forums/f...tml#post106961

My roof panels are attached to the AGM's and can't charge the lithium's unless the AGM's are already charged, so I also am adding a couple of portable solar panels that I can use to charge either the AGM's or lithiums batteries directly.

I have a battery heater. It's below zero F here quite often and I store outside.
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